Found this posted at Paceline.
http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/
"A computer is like a bicycle for the mind". Steve Jobs
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Who made your plastic bike?
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Overall, I think that is a fair representation of the process, although perhaps a bit heavy on the melodrama.
I do, however, have to call this out:
You hear this all the time, but for the most part, these "artisans" of old weren't really any different than the Chinese factory workers. They were simply guys who went to their jobs, cobbled to gether some frames and went home. It was a job to them, nothing more. Sure, they were under legendary builders such as Colnago, etc. but the workers themselves were just that - workers. Hell, many of them weren't even cyclists....they smoked, drank, etc. because that was the lifestyle of a factory worker.Once upon a time an artisan would build a frame in their workshop and stick their name on the downtube, a practice that still goes on today but only in a niche of the racing bike market.
If I'm gonna be brutally honest, the knocks against Chinese workers vs. the "artisans" of old can be interpreted as thinly veiled racism.
Just say "NO!!" to WCP!
"Want to get faster? Work harder, eat better, cut the crap. Instead of talking the talk, work the work" -
bikes today:
It all started with the S, M, ML, L, XL size specs.
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CK - please don't go down that "racism" road. We need to be able to stand back and critically look at Chinese manufacturing, both in terms of costs and benefits, without worrying about political correctness.
The fact is that few of those Chinese workers own a carbon fiber bike. I'd bet few of them even understand the underlying technology behind the reasons they do what they do when building the bike.
Recently, NPR had a piece they aired concerning the Foxconn factory in China, where parts of almost all electronic gadgets you own are made.
The American interviewer happened to pull out his iPhone when talking to a Chinese iPhone assembly worker. He discovered, to his amazement, that the worker, who spends 10+ hours a day meticulously assembling circuit boards, had never SEEN a working iPhone!
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Bellato was an Italian shop (still is I think?) that built lugged steel frames that were re-badged for Masi,Carrera or Lemonds early steel frames. When a Masi or other well known Italian frame builder needed to make a deadline they outsourced the work to shops that were known within the framing community.BUT they were artisans as opposed to factory workers is what I believe the article was suggesting. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/artisan
So I'm not surprised that a particular carbon frame company makes frames for competing companies. -
CK - for the most part I agree. Just like in the artisan days there will be Chinese workers who take pride in their work and those who don't. The difference as I see it is in the QA/QC process. You can almost bet that Colnago would be leaning over this workers' backs day in day out in the factory. With the Made in China model that is no longer (not necessarily) the case. There's a good reason why Made in China has gotten the reputation it does, it is not just polemics, although to a large degree this is with cheaper products (i.e. not necessarily bikes).
One should be able to get a quality Made in China product from those manufacturers who have figured out the QA/QC process.
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prof - comparing the days of "artisan" production of frames to today is completely an apples and oranges comparison. If these 'artisan' shops had the same production quantities as the Chinese factories, you can bet you would have seen similar production techniques.
The Chinese workers that are building carbon frames are very skilled, just as the "artisans" were....it is just a different skill set.
The reality is that the same relationship appllies - the builders of frames were factory workers (albeit in much different sized factories). They had no more emotional attachment to their production than the Chinese workers of today.
@ OC - yes, Colnago himself may have been over their shoulder, but again you are comparing production capacities of comepletly different magnitudes. Under a Colnago factory, it was possible for the master himself to oversee such production. It is simply not possible in today's world.
For many consumer goods, I would put Chinese production up against US production any day of the week. Yes, decades ago "Made in China" was code for "cheap a$$ schitt", but no more. If I had a new idea for a product, I could get it up into production faster, easier and cheaper in China than I could in the US....and have a better product. These are simply the realities of today's world.
Oh, and I'm calling BS on the Chinese worker who had never seen an iPhone. Damn near every factory worker I have seen has a cellphone, and many are iPhones / smartphones. China has more mobile phone users than the US.
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Oddly, the underlying problem with Chinese quality control lies in their government's manipulation of the exchange rate.
The Chinese government wants to market low labor rates on a global basis.
Normally, a developing nation would see their exhange rates improve over time allowing their population to purchase imported items as their quality of life improves. This situation drives an understanding of the need for quality manufacturing on a global basis. We witnessed this with the rise in quality manufacturing from Japan after WW2, as well as more recently with South Korea.
Few Chinese own the products they build, and they certainly can't purchase the expensive imported version of what they make for comparative purposes.
If there is any QA/QC going on in a Chinese factory, it's because there is someone from the US/EU/Japan/etc. at the factory site making sure quality is maintained. And what happens when they have their backs turned...well, buyer beware.
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// many are iPhones / smart phones//
What's the rate for a iPhone in China? Last I heard it was $2000 to $3000. If you know Chinese who own an iPhone, you're hanging with the big spenders in China.
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CK I have to take exception to this :
prof - comparing the days of "artisan" production of frames to today is completely an apples and oranges comparison. If these 'artisan' shops had the same production quantities as the Chinese factories, you can bet you would have seen similar production techniques.The Chinese workers that are building carbon frames are very skilled, just as the "artisans" were....it is just a different skill set.
The reality is that the same relationship appllies - the builders of frames were factory workers (albeit in much different sized factories). They had no more emotional attachment to their production than the Chinese workers of today.
As a carpenter for over 30 years I took great pride in what I had a hand in building, from getting to know the client, his wants and needs. Whereas
a factory worker is usually one link in a chain of events who seldom sees the fruit of his labor or knows the buyer.
To compare a factory workers talent to one that works through the whole process is disrespecting the craftsman. IMHO.The start of the project:Three carpenters I was lead.
The builders (notice I was buff back then :^))
The Client:
The finished project: Along the way we made (builder /client) made changes etc. which is what hands on workers are able to do unlike factory workers.
Just saying...
Not any factory worker can do what I do as any salesman can do your job.
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CK I have to take exception to this :
prof - comparing the days of "artisan" production of frames to today is completely an apples and oranges comparison. If these 'artisan' shops had the same production quantities as the Chinese factories, you can bet you would have seen similar production techniques.The Chinese workers that are building carbon frames are very skilled, just as the "artisans" were....it is just a different skill set.
The reality is that the same relationship appllies - the builders of frames were factory workers (albeit in much different sized factories). They had no more emotional attachment to their production than the Chinese workers of today.
As a carpenter for a small shop for over 30 years I took great pride in what I had a hand in building, from getting to know the client, his wants and needs. Whereas
a factory worker is usually one link in a chain of events who seldom sees the fruit of his labor or knows the buyer.
To compare a factory workers talent to one that works through the whole process is disrespecting the craftsman. IMHO.The start of the project:Three carpenters I was lead.
The builders (notice I was buff back then :^))
The Client:
The finished project: Along the way we made (builder /client) made changes etc. which is what hands on workers are able to do unlike factory workers.
Just saying...
Not any factory worker can do what I do as any salesman can do your job.
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"@ OC - yes, Colnago himself may have been over their shoulder, but again you are comparing production capacities of comepletly different magnitudes. Under a Colnago factory, it was possible for the master himself to oversee such production. It is simply not possible in today's world."
I disagree. It's challenging but not impossible. For a growing company, what you need is a proper succesion plan and training of the overseers, as well as making them feel responsible for the product. The way in which this challenge is met defines the difference between a company delivering a quality product and those who don't.
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I don't own a plastic bike, I do have several steel ones,an aluminum one, and Carl Strong will be building my new Ti bike next week.
IMO. The difference is production (no matter where its made) vs artisan. Production=speed and efficiency in a product that meets tolence for a specific item to help minimize cost. Outsourcing to a vendor that has production capabilities is not bad thing, provided the product meets the supplied specification, +- whatever, the tolerance gap is.
Artisan, one at a time or small production runs, the emphasis on individuality, not sizes s, m, l, xl.I'll choose artisan everytime.
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artisan is cool & I respect that - I just got new furniture for my living room - got stuff made in US - not 100% custom - but picked out the fabrics. Total custom furniture is crazy expensive - not to say the US made stuff is cheap by any stretch - at least triple cost of the Chinese made.
I appreciate hand made and artisan bikes - but I want what is #1 - what I can get a pro deal on and #2 what works well (stiff/fast) which is plastic. The whole China thing is not so cool - (working conditions, US borrowing azzpiles from them, human rights etc) but aside from Trek, there is not a lot of choice in avoiding SE Asia for a CF bike. I can live w/ a non-boutique ride.
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@ bob -I would argue that you just proved my point. In your example, I would absolutely classify you are an artisan (as I would many bike builders today).
But you built well-crafted, essentially one-off products. They weren't meant for mass production. Same with bikes - guys building steel frames in an Italian factory rarely knew who their customers would be, or their needs, etc. They were just assembling that day's prodcution of whatever model was scheduled.
I'm not saying that artisans don't / didn't exist. What I am saying is that simply because a frame was built by hand does not make it built by an artisan.
Let me phrase it this way - are the factory workers at Trek's facility in Waterloo (building high-end CF frames) "artisans"? What about the guys who were welding Cannondales before they were bought by Dorel?
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CK , Maybe it's semantics I think we're on the same wavelength. Depends on what the meaning of is is.
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You're getting too hung up on the word "artisans." Substitute instead "people who get the big picture about what they are doing" and I think you get the gist of the article and conversation.
Sure, the people making Treks in Waterloo are no more 'artisans' than their Chinese counterparts, but I can guarantee you that they are far more likely to own a high-end CF bike than would be their colleagues in China.
And the bottom line is this: how can you expect a factory worker to make a quality product when they don't understand the meaning of a "well-built" product.
Like the Chinese motivational quotation in the article says, the podium finishers in the TdF all rode bikes built by the same Chinese factory. My guess is that the workers were saying to themselves "Tour de what?"
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I think you need to go spend some time in a Chinese factory, prof. You are talking about antiquated stereotypes. The Chinese workers take a great deal of pride in their jobs - not from a participation level, but from a quality of work done perspective.
Much of that is due to the Chinese culture....they tend to glorify their leaders (be it political or business) and take great pride int he communal effort.
@ bob - agreed!!
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My Cervelo was built by Ten Tech. See the guy in yellow just inside the three point line? That's the guy who built my frame. Cool guy. Listens to a lot of pre Sammy Van Halen.
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Bob and CK make the Forum worth lurking in. Well-thought-out, well-written posts, people. Thanks for your insight.
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One of the worst frames I ever had was built by artisans from right here in the good ol' US and A. The "other" company in Wisconsin. Paint started chipping as I took it out of the box and it eventually failed at about 62 months (5 year warranty).
In contrast, I had bought a Taiwanese fork for that frame. When I got it I would just stare at the welds marveling at their beauty. If I still rode 26" wheels I'm sure that fork would still be in use (it rode great BTW).
So I think sometimes factory workers do give a schit, and an artisan my be thinking about Schlitz.
Jam Econo -
We have all bought well built products that were made in factories. Hating on factory workers ain't cool, assuming factory workers don't give a shit is ridiculous. Just because someone has a simple job doesn't mean they don't care about the quality of their work. Call me a factory worker "fanboy".
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Hating is pase',overused. This thread has veered off course,no one was putting down factory workers. We were trying to explain the difference between a frame builder and one who works in an assembly line.
I have more in common then anyone here when it comes to blue collar workers whether it be me working my way up from a scrub laborer to foreman or my sisters,Mother and Father whom all worked in factories.
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People have a tendency to over-romanticize the cycling of yore. I'm guilty of it myself. I've always felt the characters from the pro cycling scene, the frames and the equipment from 1994-2000 had a lot more going for it to capture my imagination than anything going on now.
The starkest difference is that back in those days I could afford whatever the pros rode, including team gear. Unless I become a hedge-fund manager or a corporate lawyer, those days are over for me, thanks to $500 carbon soled shoes, electronic gruppos and the like.
I remember purchasing a Bianchi Ti-Megatube for $2,000 during their second year of production (when they intorduced double-butted tubing, replacing the straight gauge tubing they used previously)and how pleased I was that my dream frame wasn't beyond my financial means. Go take a look now at what high-end frames cost and you'll see why there is a lack of allure towards the sport.
But things never were as they were. And sure, all the retro-grouches can claim they are convinced that Ernesto himself was looking over his staff's shoulders while they were brazing his frames, but the truth is he outsourced just like anyone else. In Colnago's case it wasn't the Far East but Poland.
I vividly remember a blog written by a cat, I believe he called it "the Lan Group*". He was a yuppie who moved from NYC to I believe Portland, Oregon for the sake of work and quality of life if I'm not mistaken. He wrote about his journey to some well-known cycling factories in Italy to get custom fitted for a frame by some of the Italian maestros of the day. I recall he visited Colnago, DeRosa, and another frame builder, with disappointing results.
One of the major things that went wrong was exactly what some of you guys are talking about-craftsmanship and attention to detail. It is hard to accept for many of us, but there are people who are in this business because it pays the bills. There is no romantic pangs that drew these people to the business side. If any of you are in doubt just drop by some of the bigger bike ships in NYC like R&A. A beautiful shop with a major-league selection, but to the people that run and work in that shop, it's a business ONLY. Just like it was with those Polish frame builders with the cigarettes hanging out of their mouths as they welded steel frames for Ernesto.
(*If anyone recalls this particular blog or can find it on the web, please notify me. I want to make sure I got the details correct)
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I'm on NeuvationCycling newsletter list,right on cue I received this one today.
NeuvationCycling.com
NEWSLETTER FEB 21
ItaliansItaly has arguably some of the richest traditions in the western world. Its art, culture, and design influences are probably the strongest of any culture in western history. No wonder Italians love bikes.
One of the joys of aging is the capability of filtering lives experiences. We all develop a personal "important list" that is more refined than the marketing we eat each day.
Italians have an advantage because they have a culture that is older than ours and our parent's culture very much shapes our starting point for the filtering process.
For this reason I always look to Italians not so much for inspiration, but more as a mirror to see if my beliefs are reflected in their culture. The older I get the more I coincide with their cultural reflections.
At the risk of exposing my true nature, and at a ripe old age of 63, I have filtered out the following....
1. Cycling demonstrates the true nature of humanity because you must suffer to be happy.
2. We live in a beautiful world. We need to mirror that beauty in ourselves and in our art.
3. Food and wine don't need to be expensive but they must be exceptional.
4. Love of family has no bounds. Amore extends not only to a spouse, but also to anyone who is beautiful.
5. If I need to have something made in China and put a sticker on it that says made in Italy, it's OK.
A culture that not only loves the best history has to offer, but also who embraces human weakness is as good as it gets.
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