Who made your plastic bike?

  1. cerv

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    For work, I've traveled to China helped launch production lines in factories for products I helped design, and I've gotta side with CK on this one.
    Most of the ideas about the quality of chinese factories and chinese workers being thrown around on this thread are antiquated, or just plain uninformed.
    The picture that gets painted by the north american media about the conditions in the factories is simply not true in most cases. Like anywhere in the world, there are good, reputable, high quality facilities, and there are shady, low quality ones. I've gone out for drinks with the floor managers in the chinese factories I've been to. They made about the same amount of money, and had about the same standard of living as I did as a design engineer. Many of them started on the production lines and worked their way up. They all had cell phones and electronic toys too, btw, and typically stuff that wasn't even on the market in North America yet for another few months. They take a GREAT DEAL of pride in the quality of work they do and the expertise they have. It's part of their culture. It's also part of their culture to not boast about the quality of their work, so you'll never hear them waxing poetic about something they've made the same way as, say, an Italian, or an American would.

    The fact is, modern Chinese manufacturing has become the best there is in the world. In the west we've let that knowledge slip away from us and become outdated as we outsourced, and could no longer compete even if we wanted to without some serious growing pains.

    They got that way by being cheaper as they learned how to be a manufacturing powerhouse and master modern production technologies, but in the last 5 years, prices to manufacture have come up dramatically from what they were in china, and at the same time, so has the quality. Now the chinese factories build the higher end products and components we consume and outsource cheaper stuff to singapore, malaysia, thailand, etc.
    Bikes are no different. China has some of the highest level of expertise in the world when it comes to manufacturing composites. You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere in the west that could do it better than the top chinese factories in building you a good bike frame.

    Posted 2 months ago
  2. stormchaser

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    "You hear this all the time, but for the most part, these "artisans" of old weren't really any different than the Chinese factory workers” This is BS and you know better.

    Except for; most Chinese in these factories make less than $1 an hour, live in the work compound 4 to a room and can't leave. Most of the workers at the factory only do this job because they have to. As far as skilled, other the designers there skill level is about equal to a fruit picker. Made in China has never been a moniker for quality and never will be for good reason, there is not one good quality frame coming out of that country that equals the level of detail you would find from an artisan. Artisans build their frames as a lifestyle choice and its not because they are trying to keep from going back to the village they came from.

    It’s funny how all these corporate bike hacks try to BS and justify their china brands, the only reason they make frames overseas is the cheaper cost of labor. The box the bike is in and the ride overseas cost more than the price of labor.

    I worked for K2 for years during the transition from domestic brands to packing up our Ski, Snowboard, & Bike plants in Ca, Wa, & Ut. and shipping every tool and machine to china while we laid off hundreds of these artisans. Most every employee working on the line was into the action sports lifestyle and spent their hard earned money back into our lifestyle supporting our & other brands similar to K2. How many of these Chinese slaves do you think can even afford the bikes, ski's or snowboards they produce, are you sure you still want to equate Chinese labor with artisans.

    BTW- My Chinese IPhone is a piece of shite.

    Posted 2 months ago
  3. Danboo

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    Cerv, I don't know where you work, but your statement that Chinese workers make what you do, pardon me,
    is just bogus.

    "TAIPEI (Reuters) - Foxconn Technology Group, the top maker of Apple Inc's iPhones and iPads whose factories are under scrutiny over labor practices, has raised wages of its Chinese workers by 16-25 percent from this month, the third rise since 2010.

    In a statement on Friday, Taiwan-based Foxconn said the pay of a junior level worker in Shenzhen, southern China, had risen to 1,800 yuan ($290) per month and could be further raised above 2,200 yuan if the worker passed a technical examination."

    This article was from a week ago.

    The managers do not make 20 times the salary of the workers I don't believe, if they did, that would put them at about $60k a year, which is just the starting salary of engineers in this country.
    Nice try.

    Posted 2 months ago
  4. Houdini

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    Seems like everyone posting here, who has actually been inside a Chinese factory, believes they can make top quality products and by jingo everyone who thinks they can't, hasn't been.

    Posted 2 months ago
  5. Yo Mike

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    Excellent observation, Houdini.

    There are all sorts of motives out there, including, of course, the profit motive.

    Posted 2 months ago
  6. cerv

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    Hey Danboo

    Consumer electronics company. No longer work there, and would much rather see the production jobs in a North American factory. The fact is though, the conditions in the factories I was in were far from slave labor, and the floor managers (who were engineers) made comparable salary to me.

    Believe whatever you want.
    An interesting story about the media coverage we get fed. I was there during the Tibet Riots. While showing coverage of the riots, CNN international was also reporting that all coverage of the riots was being blocked on Chinese TV broadcasts. I was watching international CNN while sitting in a bar in China. How's that possible if it's all being blocked? People in there were actually laughing as they watched it.

    Posted 2 months ago
  7. bobswire

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    "Seems like everyone posting here, who has actually been inside a Chinese factory, believes they can make top quality products and by jingo everyone who thinks they can't, hasn't been."

    Think Manchurian Candidate for those who have. No coincidence Linsanity is sweeping the country. With all those Chinese bikes in the country ready to spring into action when the word is given, oh my!

    "A computer is like a bicycle for the mind". Steve Jobs
    Posted 2 months ago
  8. bobswire

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    Well since this thread took a slight detour than was intended the above paranoia post was my contribution to the Zanny World of lets Skewer a thread so we can have a food fight.

    My original intent was I thought it was interesting that more than one brand are being made by the same factories.
    I know the bikes are well made since there are more being sold and ridden around the world than old world steel artisan bikes.
    For those of you who have been there answer me this, are the non branded carbon frames being sold online the same as the ones made for the big guys, that my friends would truly be useful info.
    If some are and some are not,find out which,it's your duty to the cycling community.

    Posted 2 months ago
  9. carbon gecko

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    I assembled a lot of "artisan" race bikes working in bike shops out of high school. The average Colnago, Cinelli, Ciocc, etc were not artisan made. The brazing was utilitarian as was most of the quality. Sure you could get them in 1 cm increments from 46-58 cm, that doesn't mean the geometry was decent. What I don't understand is how these mass produced steel frames of the 70s and early 80's are automatically equated with the average custom you see at the North American Hand built bicycle show. They weren't. My first "good" bike was a Columbus SL Eddy Merckx... the brazing was not that great and the paint was no better. I loved it, I wish I still had it, but it was hardly "artisan".

    Bob, I have seen a lot of houses where the framers put in window and door frames that then get sheeted right over because the "artisan carpeted" didn't bother to cut his 4x8 plywood. Hand made does not equal artisan. I think that is the point some are trying to make. That home you show may be an artisan level home... just because an American/Canadian/non-Asian hand builds something though doesn't not mean it is well made. Most american made automobiles from 70's-2000's would prove otherwise.

    Posted 2 months ago
  10. Professeur

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    // I think you need to go spend some time in a Chinese factory, prof. You are talking about antiquated stereotypes. //

    I'm not sure where you are coming from in this discussion, CK, but you appear to have an affinity for Chinese-built products. I'm guessing you are involved with importing items built there?

    Ask anyone on the street in a western country what they think of Chinese factory quality control and step back...they are likely to explode based on their personal experiences. You need not visit a Chinese factory to know that most, really all, of the stuff they sell here will shortly be landfill material.

    I recently bought a 50cc scooter, unfortunately made in China since there are NO options. You'd think that after making millions of these things they would have figured it out? No, no way. The first time I needed to fix it (the first time I rode it) the fasteners twisted off like butter. I had to go to the hardware store and buy some QUALITY US-made Grade 5 fasteners to replace ALL the cheap Chinese fasteners on the scooter.

    And working on it was quite an experience. These things were NOT designed to be worked on, though they easily could have been. The Chinese are light years behind the Germans in terms of engineering.

    So, no, I won't be going to any Chinese factory soon. But I will be avoiding the "Made in China" label at every opportunity.

    Posted 2 months ago
  11. rnddude

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    Interesting discussion. I also have beeen in factories in Taiwan and mainland China. They run the gamut from brilliantly high-tech to people squatting on the floor assembling product. I would say that that disparity in conditions is much more prevalant there than in the US/europe, thanks to unions. That being said, it is my observation that bikes, like cars, are never from 'one place', as they are an assemblage of parts from all over. Think frame, gruppos, wheels, tires, etc. usually they are mix of origin. In a similar vein, automobiles assembled in the US use component vendors that supply across car brands. Think seats, wiring harnesses, wheels, tires, transmissions, fuel injection systems, etc. The auto makers do the front end work, design it, stamp out the major sheet metal, weld the bodies together, and then assemble all of the outside vendor parts together to create a car. The actually MAKE very little of the content. The quality is in the engineering first, and in the quality of the supply chain second, and in the quality of the workers/processes that screw it together third.

    "To be free and to live a free life - that is the most beautiful thing there is."
    Miguel Indurain
    Posted 2 months ago
  12. Orange Crush

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    Well put carbon gecko.

    Fact is, I have no idea who built my first road bike mid-80s either.

    Bob, yes, the fact that all three bikes should come from same factory is interesting. Seems to me that bike manufacturing in this respect is going the way of car manufacturing. In fact, a lot of the complaints heard about quality and bikes being look-alikes are same as when the momentum of the car industry started shifting to Japan. And look where we are now.

    Posted 2 months ago
  13. OlmoRider

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    cerv> Now the chinese factories build the higher end products and components we consume and outsource cheaper stuff to singapore, malaysia, thailand, etc

    I don't believe that Singapore should be on that list. Singapore has the 3rd highest GDP per capita in the world after Qatar and Luxembourg.

    I have also been inside a Chinese factory. To say that Chinese factories would not be able to produce good quality products does not make any sense. However, it is true that Chinese factory workers are paid less than their European/American counterparts. As rnddude said, the income differences inside a Chinese factory (and within the Chinese society in general) are likely to be bigger than in Europe - and the USA. This obviously has some political implications in the west.

    Posted 2 months ago
  14. dkri

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    "For those of you who have been there answer me this, are the non branded carbon frames being sold online the same as the ones made for the big guys, that my friends would truly be useful info."

    There is no answer to this question because it is functionally impossible to answer.

    Chinese manufacturing is advancing at a rate that's probably unequaled at any era in history - even compared to the west's "industrial revolution" (which was neither industrial, nor a revolution - DISCUSS). But there are cultural differences well beyond what you could imagine. As a good primer, I would very strongly recommend that anyone really interested in the topic read "Poorly Made In China" by Paul Midler.

    Posted 2 months ago
  15. Cosmic Kid

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    @ prof - what you are talking about are primarly design issues, not factory issues. You gripe lies with the sourcing company, not Chinese manufacturing.

    I find it utterly fascinating that people who have never been to a Chinese factory so blithely dismiss what is being said by multiple people who have been there.

    yes, I source products from China. As a product developer / marketer, that is my job. But tha doesn't mean that I am motivated by that. I am fascinated by the concept of global sourcing and the impact on societies around the world. Like it or not, it ain't going away. It is simply the next step in the process that began long ago....the village craftsman for any given trade was replaced by a regional group as technology adn distribution advanced. They were replaced by national suppliers as rail and trucking developed, who in turn were replaced by international suppliers.

    I applaud anyone that buys US made product, and I personally wish there was more if it. But history has shown time and time again that consumers value low price over domestic production. You wanna blame someone, blame ourselves. I ahve met the enemy and he is us.

    Just say "NO!!" to WCP!

    "Want to get faster? Work harder, eat better, cut the crap. Instead of talking the talk, work the work"
    Posted 2 months ago
  16. BikeCzar

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    I don't think it's the Chinese workers that are a problem, I think it's their bosses and their government. Poor work place conditions, next to no pay, human rights violations, etc... I prefer to support democratic societies when I can. I vote with my wallet.

    The actual workers are good hard working people. Just like the blue collar folks here in this country. And they get screwed by the suits, just like in this country.

    Posted 2 months ago
  17. BikeCzar

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    bobswire, of course you realize you're not the only guy here who earns a living with his hands and the sweat of his brow.

    Posted 2 months ago
  18. Inferno7

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    It doesn't bother me my Ridley was made in China, it's as reliable as the iPad I'm using right now. Its important to some that their bike is unique, not me I just ride 'em.

    Posted 2 months ago
  19. bobswire

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    Bikeczar @"bobswire, of course you realize you're not the only guy here who earns a living with his hands and the sweat of his brow.

    Bikeczar had you followed the conversation you'd of noticed I was responding to being accused of "hating on factory workers".

    I've noticed lately you've appointed yourself the PC critic of the forum.
    What happened to the tolerant,less abrasive Bikeczar?

    Posted 2 months ago
  20. BikeCzar

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    never heard of him. I think political correctness is gay.

    no, I wasn't following and only skimmed. no offense. Just pointing out that there are others who have blue in their blood and live that way not because they have to but because they want to. I just didn't want you to leave me out. I'm blue collar to the bone and will always stand up for the people who actually make this world go.

    Posted 2 months ago
  21. Tortue Volante

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    Carbon Gecko said: "I have seen a lot of houses where the framers put in window and door frames that then get sheeted right over because the "artisan carpeted" didn't bother to cut his 4x8 plywood."

    Actually, CG, in wood-frame construction, it's considered good practice to install the plywood over framed door and window openings and then cut it out. This is for three reasons: 1- it improves accuracy, which means window and door flashings are properly supported when they are installed and actually results in less waste because there are fewer mis-cuts; 2- it ensures plywood (and sheetrock) joints are offset from the corners of the doors and windows, which means there is less likelihood of developing cracks in your finishes at the corners; 3 - it's faster, which means the builder doesn't have to skimp later on with the finish carpentry.

    As for Chinese factories: I've said for years that if we were in their shoes we'd be doing everything they're doing. Some factories do great stuff, some don't. The fact is, they pretty much all work hard.

    That said, it pisses me off that the corporations have handed everything to China to bolster their own quarterly reports and have ignored the obvious problem: China will not be happy with a small slice of the pie. China and Chinese corporations are in it for the long haul, and they're playing for all the chips.

    Posted 2 months ago
  22. longslowdistance

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    Seem like mainland china and Taiwan are being lumped together in these opinions and analyses. Is not Taiwan a higher rent zone?

    Posted 2 months ago
  23. KidWok

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    LSD...yes...Taiwan is higher rent. Lots of people there complaining about jobs moving to China.

    Tai

    Posted 2 months ago
  24. Berzin

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    Stormchaser writes-"It’s funny how all these corporate bike hacks try to BS and justify their china brands, the only reason they make frames overseas is the cheaper cost of labor. The box the bike is in and the ride overseas cost more than the price of labor."

    Yet, we are supposed to believe that manufacturers can't afford to do business if the labor costs weren't so cheap, yet those savings are never passed along to the consumer.

    Corporate imperialism at its' most cynical. Just like all the money college football conferences are making with their TV deals, yet they cry broke when the issue of athlete compensation comes up. But they can sure afford to pay some Bowl president hundreds of thousands of dollars to gamble and trollop for whores, that's for sure.

    Posted 2 months ago
  25. BikeCzar

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    eventually energy (transportation) costs will be too high and jobs will come back. we should be taxing the hell out of these companies. they're killing the enviroment and the middle class.

    Posted 2 months ago

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