Reading an Op-Ed piece in the NYT from David Brooks and he uses the phrase in passing: responsible fracking.
Are there any studies - not from the industry doing the fracking - that shows that it can be done safely and effectively? From what I have read, it is costly and an environmental disaster.
Not looking to start any political arguements here - just asking if anyone knows of any such research that would be unbiased and from third parties.
Well, you certainly came to the right place! Posts concerning right wing conspiracy to follow.
If there are any studies that say it is safe, the odds are good they are supported by the oil industry.
Energy security = leaving it in the ground until we have absolutely positively exhausted all other meaningful options.
Tai
just drive north of me, huge problems...they are visible. don't have to have a scientific study.
interesting thing going on here in old corrupt PA. From what I understand as of the other day - if your municipality zones the gas company, no impact fee. same as it ever was 100 years ago if you ask me. there is also the potential for a state law to over-ride local law. we do have the largest and most corrupt full time state legislature keep in mind. Someone is making out like a bandit, chromed Buicks for everyone or something like that
simple, poor counties and their roads are thrashed by the machinery, this is rural Pennsyltucky keep in mind. Mining rights right under your place and property access weirdness from what I have heard. Not sure about drinking water that catches on fire and pollution, but we have had the same town burning for about 40 years. Nothing would surprise me. Transfer stations for the gas lines have been a point of contention when they are placed right next to housing and schools without any municipal involvement
big thing is that the companies got in before anyone realized or reacted to protect the citizens of the Commonwealth of PA. Hard to put lightning back in the bottle, now there is a react mode and deal making going on. Millions of dollars are at stake for towns that look right of Deer Hunter. Check the Patriot News in Harrisburg, they've give all of this quite a bit of coverage (www.pennlive.com). Just stay out of the Penn State football forum
I think if there is a profit to be made. There is no such thing as responsible.
The Brooks article is about right on the money as far as pros and cons of shale gas compared to other potential energy sources like coal etc.
Fraccing has be done responsibly in some areas but there's also a lot of bad apples in the basket and as usual regulation is way behind and scrambling. The article quotes an MIT study that I'd hope would be independent (depending on who funded it so read the fine-print).
Whether or not we'd want to potentially extend our dependence on hydrocarbons into perpetuity (that's how big the resource is) is another matter altogether and for me the answer is no. It took a fair bit of ingenuity to come up with this technology. We can't seem to apply similar ingenuity when it comes to getting us out of the dependence on hydrocarbons. That's where we are lazy and complacent.
"Not looking to start any political arguements here - just asking if anyone knows of any such research that would be unbiased and from third parties."
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Then WTF are you trying to start? I live in oilfield country. At the moment money and jobs are plentiful. Like it or not, its not just cars that run on oil. And not just your heater that runs on gas. Here where I live we have a carbon fiber mfg plant. To make carbon fiber bikes that y'all love. They use lots of GAS and OIL to make this. Everything including the computer that you are using and bitching about was made or has oil in it. All the bitching about fraccing. Use coal. The same enviornmentalists are bitching that its too dirty. So make up your minds what you want. Or maybe we just let China start drilling. Wait, they are drilling, and they don't give a rats ass about the enviornment. Their accidents are hushed fast. Ours are made into political movements.
Unbiased? With our current media? Good luck on that.
Fracking is the red-haired foster child raised by 'clean coal' and corn ethanol.
It's all a matter of degree(s).
It's a difficult issue to remove from politics, not necessarily Republican/Democrat, but more big money/little money. I would guess "responsible fracking" is an oxymoron. Somehow, this all got exempted from the Clean Water Act, so the control generally drops from the federal level to the state and local level. Big money buys political clout. In New York State, the proposal is to allow fracking, but not anywhere in the NYC water supply watershed. Apparently it's okay if a few cows get poisoned. I just don't see how local and state leaders can make a rational decision without all the information. The hydrocarbon additives to the fracking solution are proprietary, so the leaders don't know what is getting forced into the ground and exactly where it's going or if it's going to stay there.
Energy policies are confusing. With the relatively mild winter, the US has a natural gas glut and is running out of storage capacity. Part of the reason gasoline prices are relatively high within the US is that the country has large refinery capacity and is exporting a lot of gasoline, so the price is influenced more by the global market, not the domestic market.
old iron rider- Coal is not just dirty. People die getting it out of the ground. Some companies have fewer deaths than others.
Jah- Where in Pennsylvania are you? I got married in Schuylkill Haven with the reception in Pottsville. For a while we lived in Monroeville when I worked for USSteel. I remember we owned our home and the property it was on, but the mineral rights below were excluded from the deed. This past weekend I rode down US-77 to Beatrice and visited the Big Blue River.
Hey, watch your language, Mr. Janney.
When I lived in Wyoming, I watched gas development and extraction completely transform, in negative ways, the small town of Pinedale. Huge increase in social problems (incr crime, drinking, physical/domestic abuse, etc.), major impact on small roads in the county, ozone warnings more frequent than LA and SLC, and degradation of the general satisfaction of living there. The use of methamphetamine in this working population is way above average, and the negative impacts from this drug became hugely evident over the years.
I also watched the folks in Pavillion, WY go from super clean well water to well water you can light on fire (literally) due to gas development along the Wind River. Folks there have not been able to drink their well water for years due to contamination from fracking fluids. The companies will publicly state they just pump water into the rock seams.
Several years ago in SW Colorado a man that worked on a gas rig had frack fluid spilled on him (which caused multiple injuries) and he was transported to a hospital in Durango, CO. A female nurse in the ED that cared for him became instantly ill, with strange symptoms....the gas company would not reveal what chemicals were in the fluids...they are proprietary formulas. Recent legislation has required the disclosure of the chemicals used - not just water in there after all!
The upside to the gas development is that the jobs are good jobs with high pay. Many HS grads in our little town would graduate (or drop out at age 16-17) and go work in the gas fields - making $45-50k a year right off the bat. Folks can make a lot of cash really quickly. The towns around the gas fields get a fair bit of money from the oil/gas companies (Pinedale had a huge recreation center built on this money for example), and the employee monies also improve the economy in these areas.
I'm not anti gas or oil development. But, I am for requiring these companies to act in more environmentally friendly ways. I also think that our country is probably 20 years late in developing the infrastructure and products of renewable energy.
Long and drifting response to the original question, and I don't know of any research done on this industry that is not contaminated by the corporations that conduct this kind of extractive industry.
The most irresponsible part of it is that the republican congress exempted fracking from ALL federal environmental air, water and pollution laws. Total sell out of the American people. oil cronies, congress people get rich, the American people get screwed.
The oil companies refuse to admit they are ruining aquifers around the country. Their proof? that no one can prove it was them who done it. There were no base line studies done to show whether or not there was gas/oil in the ground water before it started. The vast majority of land owners do not have such studies to back them up. So they all get screwed.
like I said
fracking is nothing that a new Buick for your local legislator won't fix.
Smokey, we live in the harrisburg area. different country when you get up to that neck of the wood, middle of a bunch of interesting enviromental things over the years. long suffering Mrs Jah is from that area and we get up there a bit. lots of good dirt road riding
That they (oil companies) got exemptions from environmental laws is sickening...
/That they (oil companies) got exemptions from environmental laws is sickening... /
How might that have happened? 'Secret energy policy deliberations' conducted by a former VP maybe?
Fracking has been around for a long time to improve the output of water wells. My guess (yes, guess) is that it becomes problematic when done for gas due to added chemicals and the possibility of gas leaching into ground water.
I like that the term "frack" had its own special usage in Battlestar Galactica.
The problem is not the fraccing itself; it happens kilometers underground typically; the odds of contaminating shallow wells are slim to none. The problem is that those chemicals have to be transported, stored and moved at surface to get them to the gas wells. That is where spills and leaks can (will) happen (the human factor) and where shallow aquifers and wells can get contaminated.
Same with every gas station where you fill your tank; you'll find gasoline, diesel, metals in groundwater, often at concentrations enough to light it on fire. Its not a question of whether the gasoline storage tanks will leak, the question is how much. Next time you pump gas, look around for the groundwater monitoring wells, a sure tell sign of a problem. And dry cleaners are far worse than gas stations; think about it next time you have your shirts cleaned.
The fact that fraccing should be exempt from environmental regulations is totally insane.
The big problem with fracking is that the resulting changes to the ground geology, and the full consequences of it, are not, and cannot be fully realized. In some areas it might be totally benign, in others it can severely upset groundwater hydrology, in ways that cannot be undone. Without access to clean water, we will all die, so this practice needs to be very closely regulated, if allowed at all. It is a HUGE gamble with unknown odds.
Another issue, apparently, is that in some of these historical oil areas there are hundreds of old drill holes that have been forgotten. The fracking is leading to oil, gas, fluids etc migrating to those wells and thence up through the various layers thereby polluting much larger areas than thought possible.
That may have been identified as potential problem if proper environmental review had been done. (but I'll bet there are plenty of old timers out there who predicted the problem. They know...).
Of course the lack of all regulation led to massive drilling and fracking. So now there is a gas glut, the price drops and companies are going broke (because they borrowed money to do the job). Boom and Bust. Will we never learn? Oh, that's right, the Norwegians did! Maybe we should ask them how to do business the right way. Not as many instant millionaires, but good long-term development.
great OT thread. thanks for posting GJanney
frack from dusk to dawn. all about fracking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=timfvNgr_Q4&feature=player_embedded#!
They've only been fracking since 1947. Millions of frac jobs over the last 60 years and it's only been since they moved in to Pennsylvania has it even been an issue. It has been a boom for economies in the areas that have Shale plays. The Marsellus shale is just the latest which has driven down natural gas prices from $5.00 to $2.10 today. Cheaper electricity and "cleaner" than coal.
Oil & Gas companies developed the Barnett Shale play in essentially downtown Fort Worth with no particular problems.
Next up will be New Albania play in Illinois. Royalty owners love it. Pumps lots of money into local economies, drives down local unemployment and is a clean fuel. What's not to like?
The development is only limited by the success of the drilling as it drives down prices which makes additional drilling unprofitable.
Hey There - I agree with you about the economics for the local communities. However, there is a deeper, darker part of gas development. Many of the landowners that are selling access to their private land are not fully satisfied with the outcome - destruction of property, no requirement of companies to clean up when they cap a well, etc.
I also agree that the problems and criticism of fracking are more evident now that more densely populated areas (e.g. PA) are being accessed for development. However, areas in the west (Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah) have been ground zero for fracking for years (google images of the Jonah Field or the Pinedale Anticline). A quick google search for fracking and one of those states reveals many of the concerns and frustrations with the industries that explore gas there.
One other detail about what I learned while living in Wyoming is that the occupational injury and death rate is WAY higher in the gas fields than almost any other industry. In Wyoming, it was very common to learn of another report of a gas field worker dying on a suspect rig, falling from high platforms, or injures to backs, extremities b/c of the heavy machinery. I'm not arguing that these injuries don't happen in other industry, they do. But the rate of these injuries and deaths in gas workers is considerably higher in the gas fields.
Rather ironic that you post this and today in Durham, NC, a national builder decides to retain all mineral rights when it comes to the sale of any property within a subdivision they build.
Not that this pot needs any more stirring but what do our residents from Ohio think about receiving all that fraccing waste from Pennsylvania?
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