jmdirt, I should have been more clear and stated hand guns and assault rifles not firearms in general. It did not come across coherently. Sorry.
I think that is is not good to assume that this guy had a mental illness. No one knows this. It is too easy to dismiss actions like this as being the result of a mental illness and ignore the constellation of factors that lead to the event.
I am always sucked into reading these types of threads. I appreciate the raw emotions and thoughts worn on sleeves. These are people who at least are doing some thinking. Now if they would take one more step and do something with their thoughts, we would all be the better for it. Prospective is the issue.
Many Mexicans think the death and violence in their country is caused by an American appetite for drugs by the kilo and ton. If the damn Americans wouldn't buy all the drugs, they would have no value and the cartels(greedy thugs) would not have any stream of Yankee dollars available to them. I don't think they are all wrong.
Several hundred thousand Hutus were killed by machetes because the rebels found guns and grenades were too expensive to kill 800,000 of those no good bums in that short of time. I barely knew that was going on until it was well underway. Do we ban gardeners and yard men?
A few box knives took down the World Trade Centers and pretty much took this country into an 11 year, trillions of dollars and heartbreaking loss of many American military lives war, and has left thousands to return very damaged emotionally.
I don't think America has a gun problem, I think America has a violence problem. Yes ,there are guns every where and crazy violent people get them. The world seems to be moving much much faster and people are stressed. With all the instant gratifaction needs and want right now attitudes some people get a crazy prospective of the world. If that guy had his own home, family, $100,000 a year job and a brand new Colnago and a dog. Would he have done the same thing? I have no idea.. America I feel is at the tip of some crazy times. The world has and is changing at such a rapid rate, we are having a real time dealing with it.
Lets say the guy kills his mom in the house and goes to the school with a couple of machetes. He only kills three adults and 10 kids? How hard can it be to whack little kids in a grade school or maybe a day care? He was one sick puppy, but would not having access to guns stop him? Who knows. Our papers yesterday had an article about a guy killing his kid and his girlfriend with his fists. Are they any less dead than the poor kids and teachers at the little school? Is that any less sad? Bet there were twenty cities that had a similar articles in their papers yesterday as well. The dude first killed his mother. Could no one in his circle of people see he was sick?
Yes this is all sad, but it to me is more of a complex social issue than a gun control issue alone. I don't have any solutions, but please people take this moment in time to get involved. Run for office, send money to your favorite charity, write your congressman, Go after the NRA if you feel that is a solution. We really all just need to do something, don't stop at writing messages on a forum to destroy the NRA as the solution to our social ills. We are the ones who have to stand up, not the other guys. Peace on Earth my friends.
Black Dog,
No worries. If being coherent is required, I'll be out! ;}
I own a 12 ga shotgun that my father got when he was 12. I only have it because it was his. I also have a 9 mm pistol that I used to carry when I would take off walking for several days in the wild areas of Idaho, Montana, and Washington (I ended up near Nelson BC on one of my adventures). I think that I could do more damage with the 12 ga than the 9 mm so I'm not sure that getting rid of hand guns will solve the problem.
There are reports of cougar and wolf-pack activity in the areas I often ride in. Those reports are happening more often and at ever lower elevations. I've toyed with the idea of a lightweight handgun to carry on my rides. One of the reasons I haven't gotten one yet is my general uneasiness about whether the world really needs another gun and gun owner.
Hab, although mnany would agree with your sentiments about the need (or lack of) for non-hunting weapons, the political reality is that guns will NEVER be outlawed in the USA, no matter how many tragedies like yesterday happen. I concur that gun control should be more regulated, but the unfortunate truth is that there are so many out there already, the pandoras box has been opened and closing it will neo deal with the current inventory of weapons already in peoples hands.
That being said, I firmly believe that the most innocent and defenseless of us, our children in schools, need to become a national priority in defense against this type of mayhem.
How to do it? Dual door entry access such as found in many banks these days, coupled with a metal detector inside. If you pass thru the first door and the detector goes off, you are locked inside until cleared by a person on the inside and the second door released to allow entry. Not only would this stop guns from being brought into schools, by anyone, but it would trap those trying to do so inside where the police can arrest them. Expensive? well yes, but effective and worth it. If we are to spend taxpayer money on this problem, this is how I would prefer it to me done.
It seems insane that the NRA and every other gun organization has no issue with shotguns having a three shell magazine limit for duck hunting but the go insane at any mention of limiting magazine size on hand guns or long guns. We value ducks more than kindergarten kids, I think I'm going to vomit.
At a very minimum we need to limit long guns to bolt action and hand guns to revolvers only, and have a buy back for anyone wanting to get them out of the house.
(I am am gun owner)
rnddude... that dual pass system saved my cousins life several years ago when a man off his antipsychotic tried to gain access to the place she worked. I don't remember the specifics of the number injured or killed but her quick action and the dual door saved lives.
Along with easy access to guns and huge magazine capacities is the need to address mental health care, and the desensitization to violence that permeates society.
Guns are part of our culture. We are a violent nation with a violent history. And you know what cracks me up? Whenever there is a mass shooting more people go out and buy guns. This type of knee jerk reaction to immediately fight violence with more violence is just who we are. Guns aren't going anywhere....just accept it.
What I want to know is why his mother failed to secure her guns from her mentally disturbed son, because it's not a secret that this kid was labeled as a ticking time bomb to those who knew him.
- Colorado theater shooter, mentally ill (schizophrenic)
- Virginia Tech shooter, mentally ill (selective-mutism, autism?)
- Connecticut shooter, Asperger's, personalty disorder
- Charles Whitman (Texas Tower shooter), brain tumor discovered during autopsy
- Columbine, both kids were taking Luvox, SSRI used for dperession and OCD
Wake up people. Some mentally ill people will f*** you up!
And yet, I would happily give up my right to own guns (and I do currently own guns, with which I hunt ducks and pheasant, mostly), if that meant that even one of these school shooting would not happen.
That, to me, is what it might boil down to (and did, for the shooter's mother, who chose to own guns); is my having a gun worth more than a child's life? No.
Duh.
Hey there: "Sorry but I cannot agree with your sentiment and the long term implications of it. There is the inconvenient issue of the First Amendment..."
Right, and by "shut down" I mean politically. It is time to call shame on the NRA, there members and anyone who supports their goals, also, apparently the "gun owners of america." both of these organizations are run by people best described as psychopaths. They have absolutely no concern or compassion for people. they are ONLY concerned about having unlimited, unrestricted access to guns of all kinds.
I suggest that if you know or meet anyone who belongs to the NRA or Gun owners of America, or similar psychopathic organizations that you tell them to their face "Shame on You." and keep saying that to any of their psychopathic, delusional, paranoid explanations as to why mass murder is the price to pay for unlimited, unrestricted access to guns.
that's the way to start, then boycotts of any organization that contributes to their propaganda campaigns. then insist that politicians stop taking NRA bribes and call out the NRA on their psychotic positions against the safety of the majority of normal people.
Inferno7: "Gun control although I am for it to a degree seems to be the simple answer to this complex problem. We have a generation of young men with no coping skills who see violence as a solution to their personal problems"
That is all true and gun control in only the start, but a very important start. I like the canadian system of catering to hunters and banning semi-automated rifles, very, very strict access to handguns. I used to hunt so am sympathetic to that, within reason (ie, no semi-auto for hunting)
In fact, I think the permit process should be so arduous that only a very small percentage of people would go through with it. And make it take 6 months. anything to make it difficult.
AND I would make it retroactive. Hard to do and may take many years, but make EVERYONE go through the process for guns they already own, and if they have semi-auto guns, they are taken away except for the one they can get a permit for. Too bad about the sorry whiners who have gun fetishes.
The other parts are the more difficult and take much more societal effort and involve a lot more involvment in peoples lives to keep them sane.
Velojo: "Lets say the guy kills his mom in the house and goes to the school with a couple of machetes. He only kills three adults and 10 kids? How hard can it be to whack little kids in a grade school or maybe a day care? He was one sick puppy, but would not having access to guns stop him? Who knows"
True enough, but we can figure that those incidents would be far less likely because they take more effort. I heard today that each person in this incident was shot between 3 and 11 times. And the weapon was the semi-auto rifle for all of them. That is serious firepower that a knife or hand tool simply cannot match. In fact, the principle was killed trying to tackle the gunman. she would have succeeded in at least slowing him down for others to help if he only had a knife.
rnddude : "Lets say the guy kills his mom in the house and goes to the school with a couple of machetes. He only kills three adults and 10 kids? How hard can it be to whack little kids in a grade school or maybe a day care? He was one sick puppy, but would not having access to guns stop him? Who knows."
That is the attitude the NRA is betting EVERYONE has, so no one will take the trouble to bother them. Ask yourself however, did anyone think apartheid would ever be stopped? Or mandela, of all people, would end up as president of South Africa? That was pure fantasy 30 years ago.
Or did anyone expect the USSR to collapse as fast as it did. Unbelieveable.
Or, even eliminating (mostly) segregation in the South. that was pipe dream 50 years ago.
It may take 20 years but we most certainly CAN largely eliminate the gun threat. It all starts with making unfettered gun fetish ownership a shameful thing, instead of glorifying it.
The other things you mention are all good, and to pay for it we put a 100% tax on ALL guns and ammunition.
Watermoccasin: "It seems insane that the NRA and every other gun organization has no issue with shotguns having a three shell magazine limit for duck hunting but the go insane at any mention of limiting magazine size on hand guns or long guns. We value ducks more than kindergarten kids, I think I'm going to vomit."
Exactly. The absolute sickest thing I heard was after congressperson Gifford and her group was shot. The shooter apparently had trouble switching his 32-shot magazines (I didn't even know those exisited - pure gun pornography). Afterwards the gun nuts were out at the shooting ranges in droves practicing switching magazines. One guy bragged he could have shot more people because he was so good at it. Absolute psychopath who should NEVER be allowed to own a gun.
Sounds good to me C2k the Canadian system. Very sad that this crap keeps happening. Be well and thanks for starting the thread, and a BIG thanks to all those who participated, notice no one was called any names or called a Fox watching tea bagger nut, my how this forum has improved in the last month!
C2K,
I know that its cliche but if its illegal to own guns only people who shouldn't have them will have them.
It's a tough one because you can counter-argue many sides since our culture values personal freedom which is also nice. That being said - it's relatively easy to buy guns, almost to a ridiculous extent, and therein lies the rub.
I have a cousin that was shot because some nutjob (who was let out) followed his ex-girlfriend across state lines, violating his terms of release. I'll leave out the rest of the details, but he basically shot my cousin and killed him.
So, we live in a country where:
1) A person who was not capable (and had a restraining order against him) was easily able to procure a gun at a retail store
2) Cross state lines with it
3) Shoot people w/ it
Look in this latest school shooting, sounds like this young man took his family's firearms - that's not a retail issue. So it's not like one law fixes everything even though it is a sad situation.
I do think we are a relatively violent culture compared to some and certainly have a bunch of gun obsessed folks. And we seem to generate a lot of troubled people.... We are also less violent in comparison to Somalia but that's a pretty low bar. So, probably worth some cultural examination.
It was funny when I went to Sweden - girly mags not too hidden, but even though an agricultural country, not as nutty about guns and violent movies and such. Different strokes they say...
That being said - the crazed guy in Norway was a shock; usually Scandinavia is pretty non-violent. I think sometimes there are nutjobs.
J
Amen brother
On that point of hoshie99's, that lunatics -- "nutjobs" -- are everywhere: when those sixty-nine youths were gunned down in Utøya in Tyrifjorden (in Norway) last year, the Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, made an astounding, brave, and supremely rational speech to the nation, the fundamental message of which was a call for "more democracy, not less; more openness, not less." Is that possible here?
THIS IS WHAT I WROTE TO A FRIEND IN AN EMAIL MESSAGE TODAY...
Even though I have my own mini-arsenal I'd happily surrender it if it was part of a solution that made sense and succeeded. Just as I'd go along with a lot of other hopelessly impractical goals if all of society would participate. (For example, I think there should be a gas rationing program in place right now...)
They talk about Social Security as being the 3rd rail of politicking but gun control makes it pale in comparison. Gun control touches the scrotal nerve of the most insanely bizarre elements of right wing culture and I have no doubt the attempt to severely restrict gun ownership would become a rallying call for the most wild-eyed gathering of mad-max craziness this country has ever seen. I think that the way to begin the entire shift is to severely constrain the acquisition of ammunition. There was a time in the early phases of the Iraq invasion that it became almost impossible to acquire primers. Many, if not most, who get into shooting reload their own bullets. To be good requires practice and that is a very spendy thing to do if you buy ammo retail. So for now forget about gun ownership and choke down on the bullet supply. But who knows, that might be as ineffective as trying to limit access to matches to reduce smoking.
The problem is deeper than guns anyway. Violence as entertainment has rotted our culture from the inside out.
Even all the incessant publicity is obscene. The media makes these obscene events serve as fodder to keep their ratings up and it becomes almost as sickening as contemplating the event. I have avoided it as much as possible. I don't need some jackass reporter asking anybody they can stick a microphone into the face of, "What did you think...?, or "How did it feel when...". How the hell do you think they felt or thought you moron?
"The problem is deeper than guns anyway. Violence as entertainment has rotted our culture from the inside out."
I couldn't agree more, AF. I adore America, and intend to remain here for many reasons, not least of which is that it is the home of my young daughter who has no choice but to stay here until she's eighteen, at which point she'll make up her own mind. But one thing that people where I come from, not all that far from Utøya as it happens, often observe about America is that we are a people who prefer to solve our problems by force, not by thinking.
It's almost a wonder that events like Newtown aren't routine, in a nation that engages in the genocidal malevolence on the scale of Operation Rolling Thunder and then can't remember doing it, in a nation that wages nuclear attacks against a civilian population and then quickly forgets having done so, in a nation that avenges the terrorist deaths of 2,977 of its citizens by sending another 3,532 of them to die in a delusional war that cannot possibly alter the specter of terrorism. A schoolmate of mine in Sweden says, "the translation of 'E pluribus unum' is 'shoot first, rationalize later.'"
I agree..."violence as entertainment". WE have incorporated violence for conflict resolution as a norm in our society. IMHO, WE need to increase mental health awareness, re-establish our basic family values, and teach our children that life is not a video game. There is no reset button for the children and adults in the Conn. massacre. They will not be going to school on Monday, not enjoying the "Holiday Season", and not ever be again (except in the hearts and minds of those impacted by this tragedy).
WE need to wake up.
//our culture values personal freedom which is also nice.//
Sort of. Not all freedoms, certainly.
To take an obvious example, in the US one is not free to buy or consume a glass of wine or a beer between the ages of 18 and 21 (that's about 5% of your adult life).
But it's true that you are free to buy a gun at 18...
@Elleseven
nice thoughts, until
/ in a nation that wages nuclear attacks against a civilian population and then quickly forgets having done so/
I don't think America forgets that, and I thought the A bombings appropriate and effective. Japanese fanaticism in the late stages of the war would have made a US invasion of the Japanese islands a blood bath on both sides. IIRC, there were approx 10,000 US casualties at Okinawa alone. I'll argue that the A bombs justifiably saved American lives, likely including my Dad's, who just finished Marine training in Sept 1945.
Ever hear of the Dresden bombings by the Brits in WW2, or the firebombing of Tokyo in April-May 1945? Those were accomplished with 'conventional' weapons and each resulted in over 125,000 civilian deaths. And Dresden had NO strategic importance.
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