Need technical advice--rear wheel slipping in the dropouts

  1. pascal

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    Was hoping someone out there might know what to do about a rear wheel slipping in the dropouts.

    I just recently built a classic steel bike. The frame is a Concorde with chromed dropouts. 130mm spacing, Shimano 105 kit. Planning on using it this winter/spring as my beater bike. However, the last two times I tried to ride the bike, the rear wheel would slip out of the dropouts any time I apply any power to the pedals. What happens is the wheel slides to the left (the cassette is pulled forward by the chain), which leads me to believe it's a derailleur issue (I have tightened the skewer appropriately, and tried two different wheels). So the left side of the wheel goes against the horizontal chain stay on the left side and I have to stop and re-center the wheel.

    It occurred to me that the B-tension adjustment screw might be the issue, so I checked it and it seemed like the screw wasn't in the right spot. But to put it in the right spot (following the Shimano directions), I needed to back it out, almost to the point that it would unthread from the derailleur. This would bring the top jockey wheel close to the cassette.

    I haven't had a chance to test whether this adjustment worked, but I'm inclined to say it did not.

    Anyone out there have a similar issue? What was the solution?

    Posted 4 months ago

  2. eurochien

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    Is the frame aligned? Have you checked that the seat stays and chain stays aren't out of alignment themselves? How about the derailleur hanger? That can have an impact too.

    Posted 4 months ago

  3. KidWok

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    Try old style internal-cam skewers first...and crank them down hard. Modern skewers with delrin bushings often don't have enough grip for semi-horizontal dropouts. The delrin can compress just enough to allow a wheel to slip.

    Tai

    http://www.thepeoplescoastclassic.org/
    Posted 4 months ago

  4. steelbikerider

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    sometimes the chrome dropouts don't allow the skewer to bite enough to prevent the slipping. Get a old Shimano QR skewer with steel nuts and clamp it down hard. You can also take a file to the drop outs and rough up the clamping surface but that would be a last resort if nothing else solves the problem.

    Posted 4 months ago

  5. pascal

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    Frame alignment could be an issue. It looks alright, but I'll have my trusted mechanic in Vermont look it over. The derailleur hanger also looks okay.

    Posted 4 months ago

  6. CB2

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    Is your frame tapped for dropout screws? Are you using them?

    Jam Econo
    Posted 4 months ago

  7. george

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    It's your skewer.

    Posted 4 months ago

  8. 79pmooney

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    Quick release skewer was my first thought. The rod should be steel. Older Shimanos are excellent but hardly the only good ones. The all steel QPB skewers probably will also work unless you are very strong. I use them as a cheap reliable front skewer. (Remember, the strongest cyclists all used horizontal dropouts and all steel QRs in the 50s, 60s and 70s. There was nothing else. And they worked. Every one of Eddy Merckx's road miles was ridden on that combo.)

    If the rod is anything but steel, pass it up. The clamping force a QR can produce is a function of the skewer rod diameter and modulus of elasticity. Of all the structural metals, steel has the highest modulus of elasticity by quite a lot (twice titanium, three times aluminum).

    QR rods are the worst place on the bike to save weight, especially if you have horizontal dropouts.

    Your derailleur has absolutely nothing to do with this. Frame alignment might make say a 10% difference if it is far off, but the rest is your QR and hub nuts. And the usual steel nuts work just fine so I would do nothing there unless they are not steel. Dropout screws also make no difference here. I love them but they only serve as a convenience for locating the rear wheel when installing.

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

  9. pascal

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    The frame is tapped for dropout screws. They are in about halfway -- the hub clears the end of the dropout with plenty of space. Maybe I should back the screws out more so the wheel is deeper in the dropout.

    As for the skewers, I thought that was it. The first wheel I tried is a Neuvation wheel, and the skewer rod is steel I think. It's possible the skewer and nut is aluminum. The other wheel I tried is a Ritchey with a very nice skewer. But once again, the skewer and nut may be aluminum. Both wheels slip, which makes me think that it is something other than that. But I'll try a different skewer and try again.

    I have some time today, so I'm tempted to load it up and take it over to Wheelworks in Belmont, MA. Maybe they'll notice something I didn't...

    Any other ideas?

    Posted 4 months ago

  10. Gonzo Cyclist

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    make sure the drop out has not been chewed up, causing the wheel to slip into a groove of sorts

    Photobucket
    Posted 4 months ago

  11. george

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    It's the skewer,I had the same problem with Neuvation skewers. All the newer type skewers won't clamp down like the steel shimano or campy on older steel chromed dropouts. It's what I do don't waste time taking to a wrench when we are telling you what the problem is. Get one of these

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Steel-Quick-Release-150mm-Rear-Skewer-/261145358423?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccd79f057

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Campagnolo-rear-skewer-flat-paddle-/190775419485?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6b19e25d

    Posted 4 months ago

  12. Andy

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    I think Bob.'s right. Nuevation skewers are lousy as are most that are constructed that way. The Zipp skewers that came with my wheels are garbage. DT Swiss like those are crap. Shimano work great.

    Lance who??
    Posted 4 months ago

  13. 79pmooney

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    An easy skewer test - does a magnet stick? If not, can it. (Now it could be stainless steel, flunk the test and be a good skewer, but I have never seen a SS skewer.)

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

  14. mondonico

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    You might also check that the springs on the skewer are both on in the correct direction.

    Posted 4 months ago

  15. 79pmooney

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    I see my wording in my last post is confusing. "If not, can it", ie toss it into the trash.

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

  16. Keith RIchards

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    It is the QR skewer as others have said.

    Used to see this a lot on steel Lemond bikes that came with Rolf wheels and aluminum QRs back when I was in the industry. On AL bikes, they are fine. On steel, especially with chrome dropouts, they just don't bite enough.

    It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
    Posted 4 months ago

  17. jookey

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    Agree with the skewer. I had some zipp skewers that were just bad. In talking with others at the time, I think they had issues.

    Posted 4 months ago

  18. pascal

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    Thank you everyone. I will try some more old-school skewers. I agree that the Neuvation skewers are not so good--just don't seem to tighten very smoothly. I'm inclined to back out the dropout screws as well.

    Bob--the ones you suggested would go pretty well with my frame--OLD SCHOOL!!!! (And nice and inexpensive)

    Posted 4 months ago

  20. 79pmooney

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    When you get your skewers, take them apart (if you don't have to force any threads) and grease them or at least oil them well. Then just check occasionally that they are well lubricated.

    I'd keep the dropout screws. They simplify brain dead wheel insertions after flats on hard rides! And they are not the issue here at all.

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

  21. pascal

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    Well, you guys were right. Went and got an old-school Shimano skewer and tightened it down. No slippage whatsoever over the course of a 90 minute ride. Rode up and down several classic routes in Concord, MA and surrounding areas. Boy it's nice to have a steel bike again. Soaks up the bumps so well.

    It's amazing how many guys are riding the first day of a minor thaw in New England. Wasn't much warmer than 39 degrees but there were a lot of roadies out getting in some winter training.

    Last, I built this lugged steel Italian road bike with Shimano 105 and I can tell you that this is a really nice group for the money. Smooth shifting, very nice quality.

    Posted 4 months ago

  22. 79pmooney

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    Steel skewers on the classic Concord roads. I've a few miles on similar skewers on those roads. Allis loop, the old NEBC TT course, riding through Concord on the way to Mt Wachusett (my training partner lived a mile from the train station). All on horizontal dropouts. All on steel skewers.

    Thanks for the memories.

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

  23. pascal

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    Ben--yep--Allis route, part of NEBC TT route, Strawberry Hill, access road to Hanscom, all that stuff. I figured you must have ties to this area. I run into Peter Mooney at Wheelworks from time to time. Nice guy, very unassuming.

    Posted 4 months ago

  24. Spud

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    Ben, what route did you take from Concord to get to Wachusett?

    "Riding is about rhythm and flow. It's the wind in your face and the challange of hammering up a long hill. It's the reward at the top and the thrill of a high-speed descent. Biking lets you come alive both in body and spirit."
    Posted 4 months ago

  25. 79pmooney

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    Spud, I rally don't remember. I would start the Allis route out Trapelo Road it I was meeting my partner and I think we just brushed Concord. But sometimes I rode to her house and in that case she would navigate until we were on my usual route. This was the season before my head injury, so there are details that gone.

    If you want to know my regular route, I think I can find that. Ping me in two weeks. I'll be leaving to go back east (for a service, I'm hitting that age), won't have time to look before then and will be internet free for a week.

    Ben

    Posted 4 months ago

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