Anybody got any ideas on who is manufacturing this frame for Flandria Bikes?
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
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The name of the game is who makes this frame?
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Another photo. -
No Idea. Looks like Bianchi decals.
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Looks like an Asian build and badge frame.
Cheers...Daryl LeBlanc
-Life is too important to be taken seriously- Oscar Wilde -
Giant?
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I am familiar with the relaunch of Flandria...as Black Dog hints at, I am curious what Asian frameset it is they have rebadged.
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Reminds me of my Ibis Hakkalugi. Made in China.
Lance who?? -
Searching around..it's made in Asia, possibly by the same manufacturer who makes Cervelo...
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Unless someone has fantastically specific knowledge, Black Dog's answer is the best you are going to do. The world of frame supply - open mold, white labeled, OEM, even manufacturer specific - is to "byzantine" as "E=MC2" is to "2+3."
I'm not immediately familiar with that frame, which is a qualified good for Flandria. A lot of these frames have been whored around so hard it's unbelievable.
I stand here thinking of productive ways to even start this conversation without going to the 10000 word zone and I can't. I'll just say half facetiously that if a Specialized product manager can accurately tell you where all of the frames s/he manages are made, I'd buy him/her a beer. And that's just the "it's hard to keep track of it" end. The "it's hard to know" end, which is where this discussion is (and which is irrelevant to Specialized - the answer as regards them may change with the weather - that's the facts of what goes on in a brutally competitive market - but I am FAR FAR FAR from saying they aren't on top of what they are doing), is much much much deeper.
Take the iconic FM015 frame (that's the name this frame is most widely known as in the marketplace)
(hopefully I got the pic posting thing right)This frame is sold under at least a dozen different marques that I could name. Hongfu is widely credited with being the manufacturer, but they aren't. They are a trading company, and don't manufacture anything. There could be a half dozen places making frames in that mold shape. Knocking off a mold shape (known as "splashing" in the sailing world, not sure it has a name in cycling, I've only heard variations of "knock off" but prefer "splashing") takes no time and no money. A third grade art teacher could make a killing having students do this. Building a proper mold, out of which you'll get reliable and straight parts, takes actual time and money.
To make a long story short, you might get something anywhere from a really good frame to an absolute pile of shit if you buy a frame of this shape.
There are no hard and fast rules to any of this. Carbon modulus tells a story, construction tells a story, shape tells a story. Whether any of them are true, and how they are linked together, is the rub.
There's sort of nothing new under the sun with shapes. Anything in the world you want a bike to do, there's a mold shape to do it. Any shape or feature whose function isn't immediately and intuitively evident to you probably has the function of being "bs." There are a lot of "aero" frames out there that are probably as aero as the coffee mug sitting next to my keyboard.
Fortunately I don't have any cautionary tales to tell. We were diligent, cautious, lucky, whatever you want to say about it. With wheels, we have been able to do exactly what we've wanted to do. Frames are a far tougher nut to crack if you want to be in a position to offer something that's what you want it to be from a product perspective, doesn't have so many shape twins that you can't offer any reasonable assurance that yours is unlike 50 others on Alibaba, and quite frankly is unique and hard to get enough that you can get paid for your work. Our frame source has been fantastic from the standpoint of delivering good product (apart from a few loose water bottle bosses which take 2 minutes to fix, and one BB30 shell that was imperfect - frame was replaced and with a Praxis works adapter will be my "a" cx bike next season - they have been perfect), but doing business with them as a small company becomes harder and harder. But some brand that was just bought out by a large holding company and has had issues with their suppliers in the past comes calling and it's hard for us to get the same attention we have in the past.
The biggest challenge at the outset is that most companies that you want to work with won't want to work with you, unless you have astounding funding to start with.
If this discussion continues, there will be things that I say (may already have done so) that are vague, confusing, contradictory, and otherwise seemingly not right. I would say that anyone who speaks as though everything is clear and straightforward is either lying or stupid. Naive at level best.
For disclosure purposes, I am a partner in November Bicycles. This fact probably colors everything I say. I'm clearly not to be trusted. -
dkri, you're just jealous because I scored this Pinarello Dogma for $379.
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Bob, you bought another bike?
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Dkri are you saying you have more control over the manufacturing process than Specialized?
LeMond VO2 max 95, Armstrong 82....doh -
Zoot, joke. Right now I'm totally satisfied with these two.
Like shooting ducks in a pond.
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I have been to the factory a couple times. It is indeed hand made in Belgium by Trappist Monks in Flanders. Hence the name. Some days if they aren't sampling too much of their other product beer, you can get a pretty good frame. Other days not so much. I had an old steel one of their frames in the red that got stolen with the same logos and colors. What a classic. Between it, the Mondia , Gios and the Swiss Cross of the same colors, they are some of my all time favorite good lookers.
The Asian carbon industry seems amazing. I have heard there are a very small number of factories that build bars, rims, frames, seatposts, you name it they can build it, for all the companies. That is why there is such a big knock off market. Same molds, some kind of carbon, out the back door and a paint shop can make you any color you want. Change a Colnago to a Bianchi, no problems brother. How many you want?
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velojo. I doubt that is the case with Colnago and Bianchi. The Asian carbon industry makes the nicest frames available - they also make cheap stuff because we demand that they do.
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Inferno -
Quite not. My point is that the big companies have multiple locations building different things, and its probably a crazy big challenge to stay on top of all of them.
We have no control, as such, over the manufacturing process. The terms are dictated to us. We can reject any faulty product, but if we want to make a fuss about pricing or time lines or whatever, we aren't big enough to swing that hammer. The manufacturer perspective is that they make the product that we wanted, well and per spec, and if their terms aren't a good fit for us then we can go pound sand. Our rim supplier, we have a nice relationship with.
If anyone wants a fascinating read, 'Poorly Made In China' is a bit dated but definitely worthwhile.
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Thanks for the response, I like what you guys do, well done.
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I have an FM015 -mine works great and looks trick. I got Jenny at Hongfu to have it painted up in black/yellow with Trek decals and the special numbers on the seat tube. Only problem was that the fork was too harsh even with my Nashbar crochet gloves, so I had Jenny send a squiggly Pinarello fork and a spacer to fit the 1.5" steerer. With some decals from Brazil to make it match I am all set. Also have a sweet set of sort-of Zipp wheels. Between the bike and the clip ons, I could average 19mph on my 30 mile loop instead of 17 like I had been doing on my Motobecane.
The one thing I wish I could do is mount my Allsop beam on it but I am afraid it would crush the carbon tubes. In any case, with my Aerolights and helium in the tubes I have it down to 7.12 kg. I then added a .0074 kg. custom decal of a red circle and slash on the top tube over a picture of that wench really filling out the blue dress in that lounge chair.
Unfortunately, the last couple weeks I have come down with chronic fatigue syndrome that I think is due to some hereditary blood genes passed down by my grandfather from the Aluetian islands.
Since I cannot ride anymore and I live in a high-crime area where bikes get stolen a log, would anyone like to buy my 7.1274 kg Trek/FM015 (I promise I will give the proceeds to charity -got to love those tax deductions).
"My ancestors used to build Saabs."
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I'm almost positive that the same factory that makes Pedalforce frames also makes the Flandria lineup.
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1274forever, I think I get it but need a little help. We look forward to seeing the listing for your fine bicycle on craigslist or ebay. Please post a link here when it's up.
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Pedalforce sources from multiple suppliers. It's not unlikely that the Flandria comes from a manufacturer which has built frames that Pedalforce has bought, but neither is it particularly likely.
There was a popular belief that there were like a half dozen factories that made everything. That is not at all accurate. Believe me, this thing is not straightforward at all. I say that with no agenda, and a solid suspicion that I'm under representing its complexity.
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