Chains and cyclocross

1. 

   79pmooney
   

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   There were three significant chain incidents that cost riders dearly in two events, the Men's and Women's elite. Katie Compton dropped her chain on the 1st lap and found herself way down. Now that ultimately did not change any standings as K.C. got into motor mode to secure a podium spot the last half of the race (and no one was going to touch Marianne Vos yesterday).

   Then in the Men's elite, Jonathon Page dropped his chain and according to our forumite who was there, struggled to get it back on and dropped from 10th to 30th. And last, but most significant in terms of end results, Kevin Pauwels dropped his chain, struggled to get it back on and had to stop a 2nd time. Pauwels was riding very strong, pushing the lead group and riding like a given for the podium when that happened (and virtually guaranteeing an all Belgium podium).

   So significant chain issues on both podiums plus host country's best man. Not a good day for the chain manufacturers (or indeed the systems those chains run on). By comparison, I heard only one incident of a puncture affecting the race; Moury of France who flatted after he was starting to blow anyways and then fell way out of contention. Tire reliability has always been an issue for bicycles and probably will continue to be for a long time. But chains shouldn't be. And especially chain issues that cost riders far more time than flats.

   As an engineer, what I witnessed disappointed me. I was viewing systems performing poorly at the highest level of professional sports where money is no object. Watching a racer trying to yank out a jammed chain while dropping 10 or 20 places, well that is old footage from the 1930s, right? And he is probably riding on with a bent link and it might well happen again. (I'm betting that was Pauwels' issue. I've done that myself on the road.)

   Every time I get on my 1/8th inch chain fix gears, I get reminded that I am riding the high point of the bicycle drive chain evolution for simple engineering elegance.

   Ben

   Posted 3 months ago
2. 

   Master50
   

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   Katie Nash lost a podium on the home straight for a dropped chain.

   Posted 3 months ago
3. 

   Cosmic Kid
   

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   Au system (not just bike related) will suffer failures when subjected to extreme conditions.....hence the reason websites fail under heavy traffic, electrical power grids fail in hot summer months, etc.

   The flip side of Ben's post is the vast majority of riders did NOT suffer drivetrain problems....have no idea what the % breakdown is, but the fact that it struck both KC and Page is really nothing more than coincidence (and as noted, would have changed nothing re: outcome in the women's race). Heck, it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the men's race either....just Page's personal result.

   Just say "NO!!" to WCP!
   
   "Want to get faster? Work harder, eat better, cut the crap. Instead of talking the talk, work the work"

   Posted 3 months ago
4. 

   CB2
   

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   and fixed gears are not allowed in CX

   Jam Econo

   Posted 3 months ago
5. 

   Andy
   

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   Clutch derailleurs might help a lot. I don't think that Shimano or SRAM. clutch derailleurs are compatible with road shifters though.

   Lance who??

   Posted 3 months ago
6. 

   79pmooney
   

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   With 45 men and 32 women, that's 3 failures among 77 starters. 4% failure rate. (Actually, all of these riders were top 10 riders when these chains failed, so that's 3 out of 20 = 15% failure rate.) At the highest level of the sport, using the best equipment in the world, that's considered acceptable?

   Extreme conditions? Looked not too different from standard Portland except for the ice under the mud and melting snow and I doubt they affected the chains at all.

   I know cross is just a blip on the screen of the bike market and won't alter any manufacturer's plans until it is far more popular. Still, what I saw showed just how far the "best" is from something that might be considered reliable for you or I.

   Now, the manufacturers could go back to 8 speeds, make those chains really strong and reliable (maybe with help from say KMC), make sturdy derailleurs to go with them and cassettes that run from 11 to 32 (or more) teeth and advertise these setups for pro level xc AND serious touring. (Maybe with one derailleur and a choice of idler cages.) Everyone wins!

   Ben

   Posted 3 months ago
7. 

   Orange Crush
   

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   "With 45 men and 32 women, that's 3 failures among 77 starters. 4% failure rate. (Actually, all of these riders were top 10 riders when these chains failed, so that's 3 out of 20 = 15% failure rate.)"

   For an engineer, that is really wonky math :-)

   You can't just discount the ones that are not Top 10. Having said that, we also don't know total # failures. Still wonky.

   How many F1 cars don't make it to the end of a race because of mechanical problems? You're probably looking at similar failure rates, if not higher. That's what happens when you're living on the edge.

   The wise man said follow me...and he walked behind.

   Posted 3 months ago
8. 

   79pmooney
   

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   O.C., if 15% of the F1 cars had transmission failures, I'd bet some real effort would go into making more reliable gearboxes. (I'm talking just one system on the bike, so let's limit our comparison to one system on the F1 car.)

   I'm not discounting places below the top 10. I just know zero about them. I would guess that chain issues run as high or higher as we are starting to include teams (and mechanics) from countries with lesser cx programs.

   Ben

   Posted 3 months ago
9. 

   Cosmic Kid
   

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   While the women's race may not have too extreme conditions (largely still frozen) the men's are absolutely was. The fact that it may be "normal" for Portland does not mean the conditions were not extreme on the scale as a whole.

   Further, we need to remember that these systems are not designed for off-road use. They are road systems, slapped onto CX bikes.

   This is kinda like saying that the current tires and wheels are no good because of all the punctures and broken wheels at Paris-Roubaix.

   Posted 3 months ago
10. 

    79pmooney
    

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    Cosmic, having good, cx worthy drive trains available, especially if the design kept in mind the ability to be adapted to touring applications, would be a bonus for cycling in general. I know the systems that failed at the Worlds were road systems. But for cross, they are not good systems. (In fact, considerably worse than the tires, I'll bet.)

    Ben

    Posted 3 months ago
11. 

    watermoccasin
    

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    The riders could run 8 speed and have more robust drive systems if they chose but they don't. They are the ones that take the risk, and reward, of running 10v or 11v systems and it appears they all bank on more gears.

    The lone Norwegian in the mens field dropped out with a broken shift lever but I bet he won't race his next event with DT shifters.

    Posted 3 months ago
12. 

    P Funk
    

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    They were dropped chains. Sounds like an adjustment or lack of chain catcher issue. I'm not sure why chain manufacturers would be wringing their hands over it. Maybe the mechanics should be though.

    It's also one race (albeit a biggy). For your calculation of "failure" rates to be valid you'd need to look at rates over the series of races. I still don't call a dropped chain a chain failure. It's not like they were snapping or twisting chains.

    When I drop a chain I don't replace it because I think it's faulty. I address my poorly adjusted front derailleur. Then again, sometimes they just happen. Maybe I was trying some weird combination of shiftin front and rear and hit a bump. Dunno.

    Posted 3 months ago
13. 

    CB2
    

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    Conditions were different from standard Portland as it was below freezing and the mud that the sunlight thawed would freeze onto the bikes and drivetrains on contact.

    Posted 3 months ago
14. 

    dkri
    

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    Albert had at least two flats from what I hear. Punctures were nearly rampant, as they are going to be in a race like that where the transitions get eroded down to nothing and there are ruts and crap everywhere. Page flatted. I think Trebon (who may have been running the 1x11 drive train? that does have a clutch) did too.

    The chains themselves have nothing to do with these issues. If you want to have multiple gears, you are going to need a way to keep tension on the chain - that's the issue. Increasing gear spread makes this tougher to do - sure you could put a mid-cage rear derailleur on there but that would just get ripped off in a mud rut. Sure you could run a three speed drive train, which would mean you'd get dropped on the hole shot, would have to run a bunch of sections that other guys were riding, have precious little traction control since your torque options are somewhat non-existent, and then if by some miracle you made it to the end of the race you'd lose the sprint anyway.

    There was also absolutely nothing at all "standard Portland" about this race from the simple fact of the speeds these guys go. They FLY. I've watched Powers race, he hits sections unbelievably hard, and at his peak (when he got that 7thin a world cup, and looked to be on rising form, and I thought he might have a shot to do well at Worlds if the planets aligned) he is not doing anything like what the top guys were doing on Saturday. Going warp speed and putting down warp power makes it a whole different game.

    Comparing this to an F1 race is misplaced. Compare it to the Baja 1000, or Paris-Dakar.

    It was a great race.

    For disclosure purposes, I am a partner in November Bicycles. This fact probably colors everything I say. I'm clearly not to be trusted.

    Posted 3 months ago
15. 

    Orange Crush
    

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    Good point dkri, in fact I had same thought right after I posted and switched off PC.

    Actually, came across Paris-Dakar once, this is in Niamey, Niger. A noisy night as mechanics have to work on cars overnight.

    

    And our own, recreational version. I can tell you a lot can go wrong with cars under these conditions. The sand pit (some don't make it):

    

    Posted 3 months ago
16. 

    79pmooney
    

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    P Funk, I'm not arguing just the chains. The trends, driven heavily by manufacturers who want a larger share of a limited market, is to jam more cogs on the hub, requiring even worse chain lines and narrower chains with diminishing tooth widths on the cogs and rings.

    If all is adjusted and operated properly, there should be no issues. Yet, we are seeing with increased frequency chain issues affecting the outcome of major road races. Using those same systems off road doesn't work very well.

    dkri, thanks for your good overall view of the issue. My comments are based in part on my experience over 40 years, going from true 3/32" chains and five rear cogs to far skinnier chains and 9 cogs. And I have derailled in a race, using the brand new Shimano 3/32" chain with the bent sideplates for quicker shifting. (1978) I learned from that experience I had to set my front derailleur limit screws so the chain rubbed in the lowest and highest gears. (That didn't affect my finish time; I never had to stop and caught the lead group both times but it certainly affected my placing!)

    My training chain of those days was the workhorse 3/32" Sedis. Every chain I have used since then has been a step down for reliability. The narrow Sedis for the 7 speeds were good but not as good. After that my analysis starts getting messed up as Sedis became Sachs became SRAM with their qc issues and chains going two steps narrower as this was happening.

    I confess, I love the shifting and gear choices the new systems offer. But I feel far less confident that my drivechain will actually finish any ride I start than I did with my best systems 35 years ago. I also have a new fear, breaking a chain and crashing or damaging myself on the top tube. That never crossed my mind 25 years ago and I climbed walls on some tiny gears where that would hurt a lot.

    Watermoccasin, asking the riders? No, you should be asking the mechanics and DSs. The riders will always go for the hottest and fastest. The DS wants to put more of his riders on the podium and might well have a more balanced view.

    Ben

    Posted 3 months ago
17. 

    AluminumFrog
    

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    Never thought I'd see the day Ben lobbied to outlaw chains on bicycles.

    Posted 3 months ago
18. 

    rnddude
    

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    Ben and MOC hit on a good point, why not 8 speed drive systems in cross? Beefier chains, more compliant adjustment ranges, etc. Is a 10 or 11 speed cluster really needed in most cross events???

    "To be free and to live a free life - that is the most beautiful thing there is."
    Miguel Indurain

    Posted 3 months ago
19. 

    Cosmic Kid
    

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    Tese same arguments were made when 8 speed were the standard....not durable enough, too flexible, prone to mechanicals, etc.

    Posted 3 months ago
20. 

    JS
    

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    My take on this is that certain riders always seem to have an inordinate amount of mechanical's. It boils down to choosing the right parts for your style and riding with finesse. Friggin Pauwels and Vantournhout have been running those crap K-Edge chain watchers on 1x10 all year and they have screwed them numerous times. The fact they didn't switch to something else before worlds is insane.

    For all the good they've done me, I might as well have stuck them up my arse. - Mark Renton

    Posted 3 months ago
21. 

    Jah
    

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    I know it is no comparison, I have been running 1x8 on my ATB in terrible slop all winter with no problems. I think the extra space all around helps a lot. For the record, 7 and 8 speed have identical spacing. Surprised to read that even single ring guys had issues, too.

    Nothing special, just stuff out of the random parts bin along with a alum bash guard and a jump stop (http://n-gear.com/whatis.html) It has worked really well, yet to drop a chain and it always shifts

    What I have noticed is that tension on the chain is key is what others have pointed out, you have to run the chain super short. I also run shifter housing the entire length of the bike. Another thing I did was put 11t 9 speed pulley wheels on the rear 8 speed mech with a thin washer on each side for a little more room. Cheap and a little weird, but I got bored earlier this winter

    The pros do have their hands tied with equipment choice due to sponsors and rider preferences but it sounded like a day for 8 speed bar cons. I should have showed up with my box of old crap and made a bundle.

    On another note, what does 10-20 minutes in that slop do to those pretty carbon wheels? Seems like a waste of expensive stuff. Same goes for power meters

    Posted 3 months ago
22. 

    jacobus
    

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    We dont have a lot of sloppy races around here but my carbon wheels have been through a handful of messy races without any noticeable damage.

    Posted 3 months ago
23. 

    Jah
    

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    I saw that several Euros shipped over like 25 pairs. Ease of tire choice?

    Posted 3 months ago
24. 

    dkri
    

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    The top guys will have 3 to 4 different tire types that they use, with 4 wheel sets with each tire type. Sometimes you have the same tread on various casings, like a tread for dry and fast is also pretty good for snow, but you want a harder casing for dry and fast than you do for snow. Add in a couple of spares and you get to 25 easily. It's pretty nuts but those guys are that good that it counts.

    Carbon rims are pretty hard wearing. They can get housed up, sure, but an aluminum rim will almost always suffer the same treatment worse than a properly made carbon rim. It's just that the monetary pain of replacing carbons is worse.

    I've actually seen more 1x than 2x drive trains have catastrophic chain issues. And actually in the time of thinking about this and writing this post I've had a pretty crazy idea for a new kind of chain catcher. A totally totally different approach.

    Posted 3 months ago
25. 

    Andy
    

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    With respect to rim wear, I found it interesting many years ago when I used ceramic rims with WTB ceramic pads on my mountain bike. Not only did rim wear essentially stop, but the pads lasted far longer and that black buildup that you get on normal aluminum rims went away as well leading me to believe that the black residue was aluminum not brake pad. My theory was that water had some affect on the braking track more than grit. Road rims wear out too but there is very little grit compared to off road but the brakes are used a lot less on road. So it is not surprising that carbon rims are not super fast wearing.

    I think Page had his chain drop into the spokes. That is likely not an adjustment issue but probably bouncing and/or mud gunking things up. Would it really hurt them to add a pie plate?

    I installed XTR shadow plus clutch derailleurs on both my bikes and that helps keep my chain in place. In fact if I have had a wheel out and forgot to flick the clutch lever back on I do drop chains and get chain suck on occasion. I can see the new SRAM XX1 being used in a cross version too. 1 X 11 with that special chain ring and clutch derailleur will make dropped chains for cross a thing of the past. Riders are using the mtb version with no chain guide on some challenging terrain and riding styles that usually require a chain guide.

    For those not familiar with clutch derailleurs, there is a one way clutch that makes the pulley cage super resistant to forward movement. That keeps chain bounce to a minimum.

    Posted 3 months ago

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