New wheel time - feedback on spokes?

  1. hoshie99

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    Hi,

    Got the hall pass for some new hoops = wife said "you have been working hard - you deserve it." How often does that happen?

    For club rides, maybe a few random races or events. So, general purpose performance wheel. Don't want to spend too uch, also not quite there on carbon since the roads are up or down around here and I like predictable braking.

    Thinking HED belgiums, 24 / 28. I weigh 170 at my high point, not generally a gear thrasher but think a little extra than 20/24 spokes might be nice. White industry hubs, Sapim spokes.

    Question: would you go with Lasers or CX Rays? Front / rear makes a difference? Socal - do I care about brass nipples - maybe just rear?

    Any input appreciated.

    j

    Posted 3 months ago

  2. Andy

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    I don't know much on road rims these days but I would suggest getting a rim that it tubeless compatible. I think that means Stan's 350 rim. You don't have to use tubeless on them, but it gives you the option.

    Lance who??
    Posted 3 months ago

  3. Cosmic Kid

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    Start trolling Chainlove.com.....all sorts of wheels pop up. Reynolds wheels especially lately....I'm thinking a set of 46's would work well for you. Their blue brake pads are supposed to be very, very good for carbon.

    Just say "NO!!" to WCP!

    "Want to get faster? Work harder, eat better, cut the crap. Instead of talking the talk, work the work"
    Posted 3 months ago

  4. hoshie99

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    Funny, I was eyeing those assaults.

    Posted 3 months ago

  5. Cosmic Kid

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    Also a good choice!!!

    Posted 3 months ago

  6. madvax

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    All excellent choices so far. I almost did the exact same build recently until I found a great deal on some HED Ardennes.

    I prefer the CX Rays. Aluminum should be fine, especially the pro lock nipples.

    Start trolling Chainlove.com

    I agree, there have been some great deals on wheelsets there recently.

    Posted 3 months ago

  7. system7

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    I have a set of Hed Belgiums with Sapim CX-ray spokes with DT 240s on the front and Powertap on the rear. I am 205 and was going for a 32 rear and 28 front, but due to availability went with a 32 f/r. I also went with brass nipples as this is more of a training wheelset.

    I like the wider rim and the belgium and believe it does create a smoother interface with the tires. I also like the Sapim spokes.

    The wheel will likely not be as spirited as the Reynolds...but should be more durable and still offer some relative aero benefits. I also have Zipp 101s, 808s and older Easton Tempest IIs (lower spoke count higher profile rim). I'd compare the Heds to the Zipp 101's but with greater stiffness/ durability.

    Have fun shopping and enjoy the wheels.

    Posted 3 months ago

  8. JS

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    Low spoke count wheels should be reserved for carbon rims or extremely robust (heavy) aluminum rims regardless of rider weight. I personally think that cx-rays(and the dt equivalents) are a bad joke foisted on the cycling public. No stronger or lighter than comparable round spokes and aeroness is debatable as my wheels built with them and on many friends Zipps a good number of spokes weren't actually parallel to the direction of rotation so they act like a sail. I straightened mine with a bit of work but the average Joe has no clue.

    For all the good they've done me, I might as well have stuck them up my arse. - Mark Renton
    Posted 3 months ago

  9. 79pmooney

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    JS, if you twist those spokes clockwise, they will help in left-hand turn criteriums.

    I like the DT Revolutions and similar weight spokes. (I raced and liked the cheap galvanized Robergel spokes of the '70s because you could get 15-17 butts. But, with all these light spokes, I use a lot. 32 or 36 with Mavic rims, 32 with Velocity Aeros. I don't race, ride very seldom in pace lines and don't time myself. Strong, reliable and not ridiculously stiff wheels are a joy to ride. (And the spokes on these adequately spoked wheels last a long time. Two or three rims. Makes re-rimming easy. Tape the new rim to the old, matching valve hole and labels, swap the spokes over and re-true. Spokes are basically pre-seated.)

    I did have an odd failure the other day on an organized (well, sorta) ride, Portland's Worst Day of the Year ride. Broke a nipple. Head stayed in the rim, the threaded part on the spoke. This was with an Aero rim which I lace pretty tight as those rims are strong at the spoke holes. Guess I went a little too tight on that wheel. Plus of having lots of spokes? When you break one, you can ride home on the wheel doing nothing. Went 7 miles to the next rest stop, got a nipple from the mechanic and all was good. Never touched any other spokes with the wrench. (The wheel could use a little more tweaking. I'll actually remove that spoke and put a new one in when I get around to it. The threads are not exactly virgin at this point and turning the nipple got tough.)

    They call that ride the Worst Day of the Year ride because traditionally the weather is so bad that frozen nipples are a real problem. Sunday was warm and sunny, but I still managed to break one.

    Ben

    Posted 3 months ago

  10. Jah

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    "I personally think that cx-rays(and the dt equivalents) are a bad joke foisted on the cycling public."

    ain't that the truth

    Posted 3 months ago

  11. dkri

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    <<"I personally think that cx-rays(and the dt equivalents) are a bad joke foisted on the cycling public."

    ain't that the truth>>

    Here's one of those things I probably shouldn't say but I'm going to: wheel builders love when people choose the super high end bladed spokes because they are WAY quicker and easier to build with, and they cost more (which, if you're a wheel builder and not an idiot, means you make more).

    We offered a choice on all of our builds and we could not convince people to buy carbon wheels with Lasers. This was so prevalent that we decided to switch to only CX Rays. Removing the option gained us some efficiency, so the net increase from Lasers to CX Rays went down, which saves most people a noticeable amount of money. We removed the choice to use CX Rays on our alloy wheels. Most people chose Lasers there, and I firmly agree with them.

    There's a ton of "they can't be good wheels if they don't have CX Rays" (or Aerolites, which are quite a bit more expensive still) mythology out there. I don't know who started it but it seems like there are plenty of people perpetuating it.

    The only thing I don't like about Assaults is internal nipples. I owned a set (they're the 46mm ones, right?), hated the internal nipples.

    For disclosure purposes, I am a partner in November Bicycles. This fact probably colors everything I say. I'm clearly not to be trusted.
    Posted 3 months ago

  12. ChinookPass

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    So I'm hearing that the bladed spokes are no better from an aero standpoint on 32-spoke wheels? Or only if they are installed wrong? I'd be curious to see data and an explanation for this though I realize that aerodynamics is not always intuitive.

    Posted 3 months ago

  13. dkri

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    Chinook -

    The basic thing is that a 32 spoke wheel, aerodynamically speaking, is a brick. There are countless tests that show this. Going from 20 holes to 24 holes (using bladed spokes in both) in a 58mm rim produced pretty much exactly the same change as going from 20 bladed spokes to 20 round spokes in a 38mm rim - about 10 grams of drag, or about 1 watt.

    32 spoke wheels are great for many many many applications. Aerodynamically sensitive situations are not one of them. If there was a time trial class where you had to use 32 spoke box section wheels, then you would get a small advantage using bladed spokes (but only good bladed spokes - a blade is not a blade is not a blade). But a guy with a garden variety 50mm carbon wheel with 20 round spokes has a WAY faster wheel than the guy with 32 bladed spokes.

    It's sort of like putting bitching Pirellis on the family wagon is the general point.

    edit - I go to great pains to ensure bladed spokes are straight. There is zero point zero zero excuse for not doing this.

    When you've got a day to waste just start reading all the recent posts - http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/

    Posted 3 months ago

  14. hoshie99

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    So dkri, are you saying that with 24/28 aluminum clinchers, the Lasers are just fine and CXs are superflous? I am guessing any quality double butted spoke are roughly equivalent, seems a lot of these builders standardize on one brand like DT or Sapim.

    j

    Posted 3 months ago

  15. dkri

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    Basically, yes, exactly. If you are doing "aero" wheels, then "aero" spokes are worth it. For right or wrong I only really consider DT Aerolites and CX Rays to be aero spokes - a Fulcrum 7 has bladed spokes that I would consider to be the anti-thesis of aero (although I have respect for the punishment that those wheels can take - I've seen some things).

    The cost for spokes in a wheel set with 52 spokes could be $52 with DT Revolutions, or $208 with DT Aerolites (prices per Excel Sports web site, as of 2 minutes ago). The more spokes you have the greater the delta gets because you're buying more of them.

    That's just my take on it - don't take it as a universal. I regularly try to help people not spend money where it's not that effective - then they can spend it where it is.

    It sure seems like most builders develop a preference for one brand. We use Sapim because their product is great, they're reliable, and they treat us well.

    Posted 3 months ago

  16. Broomkeeper

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    I had a front wheel with CX-Rays and it felt lighter and faster than with double-butted 14-15 spokes. If you like to attack hills I would suggest something beefier for the rear for power transfer. For 2013 Bontrager has 3 wheelsets that have a rim profile like the HEDs. I built up a set of 32 spoke wheels with HED C2 rims and used 14-15 spokes but I weigh 200 and the roads where I ride are often terrible. I like the feel of the wider rim on corners and I can run lower pressure without problems.

    Posted 3 months ago

  17. 79pmooney

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    Broomkeeper, 14-15 spokes are heavy spokes. A set of CX-Rays are a lot lighter. That wasn't your imagination.

    I ride some wheels I've built with 14-15s but only because they are a lot easier to get at my local shops. My choice is always Revolutions or equivalent because the ride is so much better (except right rear spokes on my geared bikes where I use the 14-15s).

    Ben

    Posted 3 months ago

  18. Broomkeeper

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    Ben, I had a pair of wheels made with Revolutions up front and on the non-drive side rear. The ride was more comfortable than 14-15s. I sometimes like to do long rides in hilly territory where I want stronger wheels so that when I take sweeping bends at 50 mph+ the bike holds its line. Stronger wheels, I find, are more efficient going uphill. I use latex inner tubes for comfort. It feels like the tire has 10 psi less. I rode last year with Conti 4000S 25 mm and Vittoria latex tubes. Comfy.

    Posted 3 months ago

  19. JS

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    Broomkeeper, wheels strength is more a function of rim stiffness and spoke tension.

    Posted 3 months ago

  20. flicker

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    I like the double butted stainless DT swiss spokes myself. Minimum 24 count rear, no matter the lacing pattern.

    If you like stiff and strong, tie and solder.

    Posted 3 months ago

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