just curious, I use 80mm on my cosmics with 23mm pro 4s and most tubes come in at ~120 but the continentals are stupid light @ 63g - the kenda's come in @ 124 + have a nice smooth valve that does not trash pump heads. are heavier tubes really more puncture resistant or is that primarily a function of the tire? is there any performance difference that I would care about in a lighter tube. any thoughts on the matter most welcome and thanks.
is there a noticable ride difference beween a tube that is 63g and ~124g?
That weight difference is basically a penny taped to the rim between each spoke. And you can feel the difference in road "feel". The lighter tubes will make the tires feel more secure on fast corners.
My experience with Continental tubes has been so so. I find I am replacing them with fewer patches than say Vittorias. I don't flat any more with the Vittorias, I just get to ride them longer. Now,if you toss them after the first flat, this isn't an issue.
They are more prone to pinch flats and punctures. Go over to latex and get the best of both worlds, great feel and great puncture resistance.Cheers...Daryl LeBlanc
-Life is too important to be taken seriously- Oscar Wilde
As BD indicates, if you are worried about performance when it comes to tubes, use latex. SIGNIFICANTLY lower rolling resistance and much better road feel.Just say "NO!!" to WCP!
"Want to get faster? Work harder, eat better, cut the crap. Instead of talking the talk, work the work"
The problem with latex tubes is they leak air faster than butyl tubes, necessitating more frequent inflation. Don't they also need special patches to repair punctures?
Is a 60g difference really that big a deal?-Well, if you're using clinchers as your racing wheels and you're seeking the greatest performance improvement AND you're always in the mix when it comes to standing on the podium, then yes.
In the overall scheme of things, I've suffered on the wheel of riders using cheaper tires and tubes, and seen the light-it doesn't matter as much as you think.
And yes; they're more puncture resistant but unless you are charting BEFORE and AFTER stats, you won't notice the difference.
If you are concerned about flats the lighter, thinner tubes offer some real advantages.
First, they fold up better and take up less room in your seat pack.
Second, you can use the weight you saved to install some tuffy liners - real puncture protection."Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
A goat head or a staple will go through all tubes so save the "its more punture resistant" for the add editors. Run the 63g tubes or better yet go tubeless.
I'm sending a neighbor out to test this. This is a bloke who swears that alloy nipples 'ride better' than brass ones. I feel as if I should place a pea in the tires too, but in any case he's leaving for two short rides on one set of Aksiums with identical tires and psi. The only difference will be the tubes [not the brands named above but very different in weight], and he will not know which is which. All valves will be tamperproof masked. The tricky part of the experiment will be shutting him up afterward.
I would do the test myself if I didn't have to mow the lawn. Maybe I can get this neighbor to do that as well. L7 gets him to lug out her recycling every week, but she says you have to answer the door wearing a long tee-shirt 'commando'. Somehow I don't think she's referring to the first-person present active of the Latin verb 'to chew'. But you never know.
About latex tubes ===>from bob's thread on rolling resistance
-- from velochimp:
"—Tires rolled slightly slower with Michelin’s relatively thick latex tubes than with butyl tubes. Thinner latex tubes, like used in tubular tires, may offer better performance, but when used in clinchers they are more prone to punctures caused by friction between tire and tube. Latex tubes do improve comfort."
Also most carbon wheel manufacturers warn against using latex tubes in their carbon clinchers due to high temps from braking causing the latex to melt and pop.
About the weight -- I think anytime you can decrease rotating mass that is far from the axis of rotation you will have a noticeable decrease in your ability to accelerate. So if youre mixing it up and repeatedly attacking in race conditions then I do think you'll notice 60 grams less mass to moveover and over again and if you are climbing I do think you'll notice. Just hammering along on a flat course -- not so much.
My test went bottoms up. The subject returned from the second ride on foot, having punctured thirty-odd minutes into the 'ultralight' phase. When he changed the tube he obviously discovered which tubes he'd been using during each phase. Why 'on foot'? Because his single [!!!] CO2 cartridge failed. Now, needless to say, he says he found the ride quality of the lighter tubes 'infinitely superior'. I tried to explain why a 'blind' opinion was the only one I was interested in. This went nowhere.
Maybe I'll attempt this test again another day. Meanwhile, keep your underpants on.
This will cause several to say "see, thin tubes puncture easier" when in reality, the object that punctured that tube would have punctured any tube.
you will not notice a difference at all
I've [and many others have..] won plenty of races with 'heavy' tubes
however, if want to get all 'techy' or 'geeky' then god yes it's a huge difference - just like aero frames (not to piss on your parade), aero chain rings, aero helmets and shaving your forearms and all the other things that people are obsessing about lately that in all honesty don't make hardly any difference.
bodynazi you crack me up - step out of the stud box, you don't believe it rolling weight or anything technical on this, so its all marketing? serious.
60g of tube weight is not going to make a difference...even if it is rotating weight. it has been proven many times. It may "feel" lighter and that it accelerates faster, but it really doesn't.
On the other hand, aero frames and helmets have been proven to reduce drag and increase speed.
Science - it's not just for breakfast anymore.
Isn't physics scientifically proven?
Its been proven millions of times that lighter things DO accelerate faster (given the same force). The question is: will 60 g make enough difference to be measurable?
The "proof" that appears in cycling rags argues that it doesn't matter if the weight is rotational or not. I haven't seen anything that claims that a 100 lb object will accelerate as fast as a 50 lb object (same force).
Your middle part hits the point I was making....is it enough to be measurable, or even better, "meaningful". And the reality is that 60g of rotational weight (especially when that weight is already rotating) is negligible. Hence the reason that an aero wheel trumps a lightweight wheel in nearly all applications (Luckily in my case my 404's are also my lightest wheels, so I get the best of both worlds!!)
Same with latex tubes - best of both worlds. Lighter AND you get improved Crr. But the performance gain is mainly in the Crr, not the weight.
Going by the Weight Weenies Manifesto, latex tubes will cost you well under $1 a gram (I calculate about $.20 a gram) so they are definite must.
I had my "fun" with latex tubes in the 90s, and they are not worth it IMO. But they might be better now.Jam Econo
When your taxable income becomes dependent on race results, that is when it's time to worry about tube choice and similar matters. Prior to that, just push the pedals harder.The wise man said follow me...and he walked behind.
Dollars/opinion/fitness levels aside -- less mass to accelerate will require less force to accomplish than that required by greater mass. It is simple physics. Can't change that. Therefore 60 fewer grams out at the rim (and that should be multiplied by two since last I checked most bicycles have two wheels) will be easier to start rolling, to keep rolling, to accelerate and to push up a hill. Will you feel 120grams? I think so. When I went from 1400gram Mike garcia DT Swiss alloy clinchers to my 1300gram Campy Hyperons, the difference was very noticeable.
Touché, OC. With all due respect to Stronz, I sometimes wonder if weekend heroes forget that they are going cycling, not piloting Super Hornets onto carrier decks. From my perspective, which is fairly representative of at least my own generation of pros, fussing over a 60gm difference — and I do not mean to seem derisive of Chris, who posed a perfectly legitimate question in a perfectly legitimate way — is emblematic of a special kind of pride: the kind that is often well funded by disposable income while drawing our attention to that person's low self-esteem. Mind you I'm not knocking low self-esteem; I'm merely suggesting that if the object is to hide it, this sort of poncy connoisseurship mainly results in exactly the opposite effect.
My guinea pig neighbor is a good example. I feel for him, and I like the guy. I believe he sort of idolizes me (which is in itself laughable) yet apparently has no awareness that his constantly waxing poetic about nuances of sensation that I myself can't detect, let alone be bothered about, gives an impression only of forlorn ineptitude. Surely he sees me roll away from my house every day, and then return three or four or five hours later, on equipment that is indestructible rather than light, with jersey pockets positively brimming with provisions and adaptable clothing. I guess we're both scratching our heads.
Quote//...piloting Super Hornets onto carrier decks.
I've run latex tubes and find them a major pain-- hassle to patch, expensive, leak down overnight.
Latex is best used in condoms...."To be free and to live a free life - that is the most beautiful thing there is."
PlanB thats funny. Don't we all feel like we're piloting a Hornet when we're cycling sometime or other? Does that mean we all have low self-esteem? I dont think I quite fit your description howver but so what. I actually get a lot of joy and satisfaction from tinkering with equipment and trying lighter stuff is part of that. Bike stuff is cool! I freely admit that i cant tell the difference between high tpi tires and low tpi, between stiff carbon handlebars and aluminum. But -- I can tell he difference between heavy wheels and light wheels. So if that makes me a guy who thinks he's piloting a Hornet (which sounds pretty neat) and has low self esteem so be it. Just doing stuff that makes me happy.
Maybe some of us suffer from low self-esteem, but I think the majority of us forumites just have vivid fantasy lives -- like Walter Mitty on two wheels.
Stronz, you may "feel" 120g, but does it make a performance difference? And the answer is "no". I've pointed it out before...go to http://www.analyticcycling.com/ and put the numbers into their models. As you correctly note, it is "simple" physics (although I don't think any physics is "simple"....but math was never my strong suit!!)
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